Terra Naomi on Async Art, Music NFTs, and Owning Her Songs | NFTS.WTF Interview

Singer-songwriter and composer Terra Naomi on getting her songs back from Universal, rebuilding Say It's Possible as a 480-version Async Art piece, and why music NFTs can turn fans into partners.

Interviewed by David Cash. Book David to host, moderate, or speak: https://davidcash.ca

Recorded on day four of NFT.NYC 2021 in New York, Terra Naomi tells David Cash how Clubhouse NFT rooms pulled her into the space and how she set her instrumental compositions to digital sculpture for her first NFT. She explains why visual art reached NFTs before recorded music, why crowdfunding never made fans into a marketing team, and why collecting can. Terra describes getting her publishing rights back from Universal, the song that started her career on YouTube, and how she reimagined Say It's Possible on Async Art: five layers of sound, collectors who control the stems, and blank records that mint the mix you hear. She talks about running her career without a manager, teaching herself finance, joining the teams at Async Art and WarpSound, the AI artists of Authentic Artists, and what a recovering perfectionist gains from building in public.

Watch on YouTube

Chapters

1. 00:00 Intro at NFT.NYC with Terra Naomi
2. 0:30 Day four as an introvert
3. 1:48 Clubhouse and the NFT rooms
4. 3:03 Her first NFT: music set to digital sculpture
5. 4:54 Currency, a collaborative piece
6. 5:28 Getting her rights back from Universal
7. 5:41 Say It's Possible on Async Art
8. 6:48 Why visual art came to NFTs before music
9. 7:43 Crowdfunding versus collecting
10. 11:07 Money people and artists meet in the middle
11. 12:51 Working without a manager
12. 14:29 Giving herself a financial education
13. 17:08 Music that uses the blockchain
14. 18:39 How Async Art works
15. 22:16 Reimagining Say It's Possible
16. 24:41 Letting collectors control the mix
17. 26:30 Blank records and minted mixes
18. 28:50 Joining Async Art through a tweet
19. 31:22 Her brother and the road into Web3
20. 33:33 From fearing AI music to using it
21. 34:54 WarpSound and live AI artists
22. 36:47 Letting go and building in public
23. 39:34 When artists restart a song on stage
24. 41:34 Where to find Terra

Speakers

• David Cash, interviewer and editor-in-chief, NFTS.WTF
• Terra Naomi, singer-songwriter and composer

Key topics

• NFT.NYC 2021
• Clubhouse and the early NFT community
• Music NFTs and composers
• Getting publishing rights back from a major label
• Async Art and programmable music
• Stems, layers, and collector-controlled mixes
• Crowdfunding versus collecting
• Financial education for artists
• Independent careers without a manager
• WarpSound and AI music
• Building in public

In their words

"The stuff that excites me is the stuff that you can only do on the blockchain." Terra Naomi

"It's freedom, total freedom, and total responsibility." Terra Naomi

How to cite

APA: Cash, D. (2021). Terra Naomi on Async Art, music NFTs, and owning her songs [Video]. YouTube. https://youtu.be/hIg35770LzI

Chicago: Cash, David. "Terra Naomi on Async Art, Music NFTs, and Owning Her Songs." Recorded 2021, New York. YouTube video, 43:10. https://youtu.be/hIg35770LzI.

About NFTS.WTF

NFTS.WTF was a Web3 culture publication and interview series edited by David Cash. It covered artists, collectors, and builders during the 2021–2022 NFT boom. It ran for two years and closed after a board decision by the NFTS DAO, which left many of its interviews unpublished.

More interviews: https://www.youtube.com/@davidcash888/playlists

Recording details

Recorded 2021 at NFT.NYC, New York City. Originally published on NFTS.WTF, December 2021. This edition: archival re-release with chapters and captions, 2026.

Transcript

Machine-transcribed and reviewed. Timestamps link to the moment in the video.

[0:17] Good morning from New York City. We're here at NFT NYC. My name is David Cash, editor-in-chief of NFTS.WTF. And we are here with the incredible Terra Naomi. How are you doing today? I'm doing well. I'm a little cold. I'm a little tired. Day four vibes, you know. Like, all-week conference vibes. I don't know what day it is. I don't know what time it is. I feel like that's been my life for the last nine months, though, so it's all good. In and out of the metaverse, right? Like, it's sunny out, so it must be daytime. We're doing all right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So how have you found this week? I know that it's been such a journey, meeting so many people in person. How has it been for you, and is there anything that's really stood out for you, being here in New York right now? I mean, I kinda had this idea that I was gonna come here and, like, go to all the parties and meet all the people. Hypothetically. And I met, like, five people. I mean, it's been great. The people that, you know, I've loved everything I've done so far, but I've definitely done less than I thought, which I think is actually much more reasonable, because I'm an intense introvert.

[1:15] And so it's like, being around this many people is actually pretty overwhelming for me. Totally. Yeah, so I kind of come out in the morning, and I go to some panels and see some people, and then, like, retreat back to my brothers where I'm staying, and then, like, go out again at night for, like, one event, and then I come home, and I'm asleep by one, and it's so reasonable. It's very reasonable. It's so reasonable. I'm like, who am I right now? Like, I'm so reasonable. Responsible adult. I think I'm responsible. Yeah, yeah. No, finally. Absolutely. But I mean, that makes sense, though. Coming from this space, and being such a decentralized space, and so virtual, we're able to do so much just from the comfort of our homes. And I know you've done so much on Clubhouse. I'm curious, for people watching, how has that process been for you? And maybe to follow that up, I'll ask if you've met any people from Clubhouse in person. But yeah, how did the Clubhouse thing start for you, and how has that process been?

[2:07] It's been great, and now it's like a lot of Twitter spaces, you know? For me, it's really good because I prefer not to leave the house. And so I can be social, and then I can just be like, oh, connection's going, bye. Bye. I feel like, oh, I lost Wi-Fi. I don't know what happened. You know, just like duck out when I need to, and like, not feel like I have to stand and hold a conversation, you know? So it's been a really amazing way to connect with people during this time also, when we really didn't have other options. When did you get on? I think I joined at the end of December. Wow, yeah, that's the last year, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and pretty quickly found my way into the NFT spaces, which is something I was already exploring off Clubhouse. And I was like, oh, there's all this, you know, there's all these NFT spaces and rooms and community on here. And so I met a lot of great people pretty early on, and we're all sort of going through this journey together, you know?

[3:03] So it's been great. Beautiful. So I wanna talk about a few of your projects and some of the crazy work that you've done. But you were quite early to NFTs. I mean, I minted my first NFT, it wasn't called an NFT then, in 2019. But even if you were in 2020, super early, when was your first experience with NFTs, when was that like for you, coming from music? Like, what was that first, like, interaction? I made a piece, it's an audio-visual sculptural piece, and animation. And I made it because I was trying to figure out, you know, coming from music, I was like, well, do I, the music space has grown so much in just the last couple of months even, you know? And in January, it was sort of like, well, what do I, how do I contribute to this space as a musician, you know? And I'm also a visual artist, so can I explore some of that? And like, I made something in Blender that was sort of like a, I can't really describe it. You can see it on Open Stage.

[3:58] We'll plug it here. You can see it on Foundation, that's where I sold it. And it, because I, in addition to singer-songwriter stuff, I'm also a composer, and I had all this instrumental music that I loved and didn't really know how to share. Like, stuff that- What content you put that in, yeah, exactly, yeah. Right, and it's like, well, it's, you know, it's sort of this weird instrumental music that I use to showcase my skills when I'm- But you probably love it. Like, it's like your passion, yeah. I really love it, yeah, I love it. And I do it for film and television, but it's just like, well, aside from film and television, you know, this gives me a way to share that music that it's the same thing for like digital artists who were always, before digital artists were creating work to be used in other people's projects, right? Right, it was just an object, yeah. Right, so composers, it's the same thing, a lot of, for a lot of us, it's like, well, you know, when we make something for film and television, we put it into that project, but otherwise, what am I gonna do with it, right? And so, I had this idea to sort of make some digital animations, some sculpture, digital sculptural animations, and set my music to that.

[4:54] And so, I did that, and I made, that was like the first one that I minted, and then I did another project with my friend Andrew Dost from the band Fun, and my friend Linus Dahlgren, who's a Swedish animator, who's really wonderful, and yeah, and we did a piece called Currency, which was just sort of a reflection on the state of- You beat Damien. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, we did it in, when did we do it? I guess February, and it's a song that we wrote. It's kind of like this, it's this fun little song called Currency, and yeah, that was cool, we did that. And then I released my, I got my rights back from Universal this year. Oh, amazing, congrats. Thanks, yeah, that was kind of a big deal, and yeah, it was really exciting to get that back, and then the timing was perfect, because then I'm like, okay, now I know what to do with this stuff. I'm a sovereign being, I'm an NFT person, I can do it, yeah, absolutely. I can do whatever I want with them now, and so I recorded, I made an async art project with my song Say It's Possible, and so there's 480 different versions of the song, potential versions of the song, depending on what the collectors decide to do with it.

[5:58] I don't know if you know how async works. Yeah, no, that's actually one of the things I want to talk to you about. I think that's the coolest thing, that you're taking music to this next level. And I think that it's very much a logical next step, because at least the royalties aspect of NFTs made a lot of sense, I think, to the music industry. I think it's interesting that art came first, in terms of the art world really embracing it first, but I do really feel like music is happening now, and I definitely see you as one of the people who's started to innovate in that space. When did you start thinking about the fractionalization aspect, and I know async has been such a big driver for you, but your work is incredible on there, and you're doing things that nobody's done before. Well, so async isn't actually fractionalized, but the actual piece is interactive, as in different people can control different pieces of it. And so, yeah, so the fractionalization is not part of async, but is also something that's super exciting for the music business. And I mean, you mentioned something interesting, which is the art world came first, but to me that really makes perfect sense, because there is an established way to collect visual art, and there's precedent for that.

[7:02] That's not a big stretch. People are used to buying visual art and collecting it, but with music, recorded music specifically, they're used to just listening to it for free. So transitioning people over from this expectation of, I can have as much music as I want, I can listen to it as much as I want to. The Spotify ideal, yeah. Exactly, and that really set musicians back quite a bit, as far as the perception of value, to perceive the value of recorded music. So re-educating people about this, and I also believe that we can't put that genie back in the bottle, it's like people expect, streaming isn't going away, and it doesn't need to, but there's this other sort of, the next logical progression from crowdfunding, in my opinion, which is like, actually instead of having this kind of false promise of, like the thing with crowdfunding was, make your fans into your biggest marketing team, by involving them in the process, and it's like, no, nobody's gonna do that. Like you're gonna, you're gonna.

[7:59] Asking them to work harder. Yeah, no, you're gonna give your $25 to have somebody that you like make an album, great, and then you're gonna get on with your life, right? You're not gonna sit there and like, then shout it for the Rufops, and then be their marketing team. But with NFTs, that actually happens, because when I buy into a project, when I collect a project that I'm excited about. You champion it, yeah. Yeah, because I stand to benefit from that too. Right, absolutely, yeah. First of all, if I buy something, it's because I believe in it. If I collect something, it's because I want to like, build a relationship with that creator, and I believe in the potential of that creator, and the project. And then like, yeah, I'm gonna share it. I want everyone to buy into it. I want us all to collect it, and I want it to go up in value, because I participate in that. Exactly. And so it's like, finally this mutually beneficial relationship that's possible for musicians to have with our audiences, and that is completely new. And it's sort of like the, that was like the false promise of Web 2. Yes, absolutely.

[8:55] And now we're there, now we're here. I've mentioned it in almost every talk that I've done, but like, the differentiation between Web 2 and 3, going from like, building an audience to building a community, and I think that's so important. And when it's a community, you can actually support each other, not just hypothetically support each other. Exactly, exactly. Like, it's so important. Well yeah, and it's not, it's like you're not looking to monetize your audience, you're looking to like, include them. They've already bought in, yeah, yeah. Or you're looking to include them, you're looking to build with them. It's like you go from seeing people as like, this one-sided way of how they can support you. Right. I've done like, four crowdfunding campaigns, and I cannot tell you how like, soul-crushing it was to have to be like, hey friends! Shilling your family and friends. Yeah, you know. I know, I funded a movie once, crowdfunding was such a pain. Because it's like, it's just, it feels horrible. Yeah. And so now it's like, okay yeah, I know you believe in me, you've supported me all these years, but now it's like, here's a way that we can actually be in business together, in a sense.

[9:48] Right, no, for real. Obviously like, nothing is a financial advice, and whatever, but it's like, when you collect an NFT, I think you do it with the expectation, you know, it's the intersection of art and finance. It's like, you do it with the expectation that the project is gonna do well. At least I do. Right, if you're gonna buy something, it makes sense, yeah. There's some that I support just because I wanna support people in the community, and I don't know that it's ever gonna go up in any way necessarily. Friends, people you like, yeah, artists you like. Yeah, or art, that I'm just like, this is beautiful, and I don't know that it's ever gonna like, I don't know what's, we don't know what's gonna happen. But like, then there's some stuff that I buy, like 48s, that I'm like, you know, these are cool. Am I gonna hang it on my wall? No. You know, but I believe in something. But you see the tremendous value in like that, yeah. Yeah, something felt good about that project, so I bought a bunch of them. You know, like I minted some, and I'm just like, this is cool. So, whatever. And that didn't work out too badly for you. I mean, hey. No, it was good. No, I think it's awesome.

[10:40] And a big thing that I also like to talk about is how, like you were saying, like the art world came first, and that was logical. And I do kind of agree as well, because anything that can be bought or sold for a significant amount of money just makes sense to transact on the blockchain. It's a safer, better version, and there's nobody in between. And especially coming from working with Universal, I don't know what you wanna talk about, but like going from like a traditional music background, how has that been finally taking like sovereignty over your work and over what you put out? Well, I mean, it's incredible. And it's incredible, you know, going from this place where, last night I was in a room with like a bunch of fund people and like business people. Money guys. And I used to walk into those spaces, and I told them this last night, because I'm just like, I used to be so uncomfortable, because it was them and us. It was like, these are the guys who have to like you in order to get what you need to get approved. These are the guys who have to give you, like, I need their acceptance. I need them to see my value, you know?

[11:35] And it seems like everybody's kind of come more towards the center. Like the money guys are now seeing the value in art. And now they're asking us for help. Right, they're seeing the value in creatives. They're seeing, they're getting a sense of actually what we're capable of and what we can do. They're valuing us. And the artists are actually seeing like, seeing ourselves as business people. So it's like, it feels like suddenly these two worlds are coming together. And I love that. And I think that's, you know, why for me, I mean, there's always gonna be a place for labels. There's artists that aren't entrepreneurs. Right, they don't wanna do their own work. If you're not an entrepreneur, if you're not prepared to work 16 hours a day and hustle your butt off and like, you know, then like, no, sign with a label. Yeah, let them do it, yeah. But like for people like me who kind of don't fit into, you know, one little box, like that was always the problem too for me was that people didn't really know what to do with me.

[12:26] They're like, oh, you do this, you do this, you do this, you know, what's the one thing that you are and like. I love talking, okay, so I'm very much a multidisciplinary as well. Yeah. One more time. I'm very much a multidisciplinary as well. And like, I feel that this space has facilitated the multidisciplinary ideal so much, like you don't have to do one thing. You can be excellent at a lot of things. And to be successful in this space, you almost have to be like a 360 marketing company like yourself. Yeah, exactly. So how has that process been for you? I feel like you're somebody who's always worked on your work in multiple ways, like creating visuals, creating music. But how has this process been for you finally being able to take control and do it all yourself, like or through your team, yeah. It's amazing, I don't really have a team, you know. It's you. It's me. Which is even more impressive. I mean, I work as part of teams on other people's projects now, you know, like I'm consulting for Async Art. I'm working on another project with a company called Authentic Artists and we're creating an AI PFP that comes out of this bigger project that they've been working on for two years.

[13:27] It's all about, it's all music. It's like a, it's a music, it's gonna be. I'm so excited to see that. It's AI music, I feel like it's kind of like, it's gonna be the thing that is the next, music is sort of primed to have a big moment right now and I feel like this project is gonna be, you know, not to like show my project, but. No, please. I'm asked to join teams just about every day and this is one of two that I joined, you know. I joined Async and I joined this project and I'm asked, not even exaggerating, every day. So I feel like I'm super excited about that. So that, just to say, like I work on other people's teams when it comes to my stuff, it's just me. You do everything. Yeah, I do everything. So I don't have a manager at this point. I don't, you know, I don't. It sounds like you don't really want one if it's like right now. I don't need one right now. Like at some point, I have those, I have the relationships that would have been facilitated through a manager, I have them directly now.

[14:22] They reach out to you directly, yeah. Like last night, you know, it's like I meet with founders, I meet with VCs, I meet with, you know. Which is pretty empowering as well, no? Like as a musician, as a woman, as an artist, like just being able to just be taken seriously for what you do, no matter what it, across all boards, right? This space has given me a financial education. I've given myself a financial education in this space. Because I didn't have that before. And especially like as a woman, as an artist, you know, it's sort of like, I felt like I was never encouraged to embrace like the business side and like the financial education side of life. And as a result, I really got into a lot of bad situations, like with my label deal, with like business managers who. Because nobody tells you what to, yeah, you get a 50 page contract, what are you supposed to do with that? Like I'll read it, but I'm like, I don't know what to do. I didn't really want to deal with my finances. And so as a result, I ended up with people that stole them, you know? So it was just like, okay, this is the opposite of that. It's like you have all the freedom, all the responsibility. And so it's like, in order to, that's the other thing I always tell artists is like, yes, explore the space.

[15:23] But you, it's weird, it's like an onboarding thing. Like you want to onboard people. And you also want to like emphasize how important it is to actually understand what is going on in this space. Like you have to understand finance. You cannot walk in, like that's the thing. It is the intersection of both. Are you gonna get wrecked? You cannot come into this space without understanding finance, understanding the technology, underlying technology. You need to understand why things work here the way they do. Yeah, so I mean, it's freedom, total freedom, and total responsibility. Absolutely. And that's decentralization. Yeah, that's Web3, that's crypto, yeah. Yeah, you can't call and be like, hi, I accidentally sent this to this, you know. And I've had clients try to do that too, you know. They lose like, you know, three ETH or something. They'll try and call Coinbase and they're like, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, there's literally nothing we can do, you know. And it's amazing because it's so empowering because it forces you to learn.

[16:18] And it forces you to take responsibility and it forces you to like, not hand off that responsibility to somebody else. It's true empowerment, you know. I love it. And you've done such an incredible job at like taking everything a step further. Obviously, you have this background in music, you have a background in art, but you've really pushed things on the tech side of things, especially through Async. But creating, again, things that have never been done before on a technology level. And for me, I'm genuinely curious, how has that learning process been? Where did you start with that? What really inspired you to not just put out your music, but to make it, to gamify that process for your audience and for the people who collect your work? I mean, to be fair, I didn't build that. You know what I mean? Async built that. Async built those tools for artists like me who don't have complex tools. I feel like a lot of people don't take advantage of them, but you like, you really utilize them well. The thing is like getting into this space, I see a use, like I see a, there's room for everything.

[17:16] There's room for people that want to mint an MP3. But to me, that doesn't interest me as much. Sounds so exciting. Like I'm more interested in art and music that actually really integrates and makes use of the underlying technology. The stuff that excites me is the stuff that you can only do on the blockchain. You just release it, yeah. Yeah, like if I'm just doing something that I've done for the last 15 years, but I'm just doing it on the blockchain, why? Right. Like I need to understand why, and to me the most compelling uses for, you know, the most compelling use cases for music, art, blockchain are the things where it's all baked into one. Absolutely. You know, and where you're really, where we're really taking advantage of the technology and using it. Yeah, because it's there. Yeah, and pushing it and pushing what can be done. And so Async has really done that by providing a way for art to be interactive and programmable and living and breathing and constantly changing.

[18:09] And also, like we were talking about community before, but like, you know, involving the community in the creative process. Because now it's like, my song is out of my hands. Right, they can change it. Yeah, I can do, I can't, I have no control over it anymore. Somebody else owns it, they can, you know, obviously I created the different, all the files, I recorded all the music, I wrote all the parts, I made all the art, so it's like, in that sense I had control over all 480 versions because I controlled the underlying stems that can then get mixed and matched. So you work with Async, an incredible platform, tell us a little about how that works and the process, maybe contextualizing it with one of your drops. I would love to. Yeah, so Async is an incredible platform for creators and for collectors. Essentially, like, if you wanna, I think the best way that I can explain it is when we create either digital art or music in the studio, everything is created in layers. If I'm in the studio, you know, I've got a layer of vocals, you know, then I have one layer of guitars, one layer of drums, bass, whatever it is, right? And so normally what happens is I would do a bunch of takes, I would choose the best one, and then I would flatten that down into one, you know, one song. And export it, yeah. Right, and export it, and that's how it lives forever.

[19:21] And the same thing with art. If you're working in Photoshop, you've got the different layers of visuals, you make each layer what you want it to be, then you compress it, you flatten it into one piece, and there is the final piece forever and ever, right? So with Async, you've got all these different layers, but instead of flattening them down and making one permanent piece that stays in that configuration forever, you mint all of the layers separately. So Async stands for asynchronous. And so they now function independently. You've got however many layers you have in the art, and you have different variations within each of those layers. So instead of having one static piece, you have different collectors collecting the different layers. They get to then make the choice between like, do I want this variation, this one, this one, this one? And so the piece is changing on any given day. With some of these pieces, like the Guild did a piece with 38 artists.

[20:16] Each of them had multiple layers. So there were literally, I don't know, millions or billions? I can't even do the math. But like with my Say It's Possible piece, I had five layers of sound. Each of those layers had between three and five different variations, and so we ended up with a piece that has a potential of 480 different versions. Amazing. And I lose control. So when you create on Async, it sounds kind of overwhelming, but if you go on and you play with it, you can click through the different pieces, you can see all the different layer states, you can see the changes, you can randomize the piece on the art side and see how it will look in one of these many different permutations. It's, Async has basically taken super complex coding that most of us, very few of us would be able to do, without really understanding how to code. And they've made it accessible to artists of all levels. So it takes a little while to sort of conceptualize and wrap your head around it.

[21:13] But once you do, it inspires artists to create in an entirely different way. Like when I was making this piece, so I got my publishing rights back from Universal this year, which is like the most worth of timing. Thanks. It was so funny, I thought I was gonna have to fight, and I wrote this email, because I don't have a manager at this point, and I wrote to Universal, and I was like, I was like, dear sirs, you know, like I was so, I was so intense, I was just like, getting ready for a fight, and I'm like, too much of a concern. I'd like to speak to the manager. Yeah, yeah, I was like, I'm writing to Inquiro about, you know, getting my publishing back, you know, and I was ready to go. I was like, please advise me as to what I, how to pursue, dah, dah, dah, dah, you know. And they write back, and they're like, actually your rights revert to you this year, so you're all set. Amazing. I was like, that's it? Like, I thought I was gonna have to like, raise all this money, like, I was like, Oh, no, I thought I was gonna have to do like, an NFT project just to raise the funds to buy back my rights, to then do what I wanted with my songs.

[22:16] But so, I chose Say It's Possible, because that was kind of like the song that launched my career, and I chose to do it on Async, because I'm like, you know, when I, when I recorded, the origin of the song was on YouTube, so I recorded it, this acoustic song, I recorded it in my bedroom, well, it was actually, I lived in a little tiny studio in Hollywood, so there was no bedroom. Studio bedroom combo. I recorded it in my room. Same room your mattress was in, yes. Exactly, like just a different wall. And the song really blew up, and it, but it was this straight acoustic, you know, really raw, I think I wrote the song in under 10 minutes, and I played it like, a few times, and then I'm like, that one, and I just uploaded it to YouTube, and so, it really took off, and then I ended up winning the first YouTube award for it, so it was this very like, community focused, because the YouTube award at the time was voted on by the YouTube community. So, you know, it was all about the community, elevating this unknown artist, who was me at the time, and my life changed because of it, and then what happened was, I signed with Universal Music and Island Records, and I made this album I didn't wanna make, and it was all like, overproduced, and you know, it was, it was kind of a mess, and so what I wanted to do for like, my own process of reclaiming my song, was to like, reimagine it, and have a version, like, have it be able to exist as a completely acoustic version, have it be able to exist with 13 different instruments, and have everything in between.

[23:42] So there's versions in the 480, depending on what the collectors of the stems do, there's the potential to have, you know, acoustic guitar and vocal only, or there's the potential to have 13 different layers of sound. So, yeah, so Async was really the perfect platform for me to do that. It's incredible. I love it, I love it, and that's so well put together. Yeah, it's fun. I'm, I always like to contextualize conversations like this with the idea of hypermodernity, so like, there's this concept that we've now reached a point where technology is progressing at a rate that we can't comprehend, so like, that's why most of us don't understand how our computers work, but we don't have to, we don't have to, and I think what Async's doing, I think is really important, because they're taking like, really complex issues, which otherwise would need a whole dev team to assemble, and allowing artists like yourself to create really innovative works, and I'm incorrectly thinking of it as fractionalization because of this breakdown system, but have you seen anything come out of that that you would never have expected? Have you seen combinations of different tracks that you were like, oh my god, I didn't even think of that together, and this is so cool?

[24:47] Well, yeah, because I mean, I definitely tested a bunch of them. There's no way that I listened. 480 times, no. And I mean, when I wrote the piece, it's like, the thing that I think is so exciting about it is that it forces you to create in a whole different way, and that's what I was looking for. I wasn't looking to just replicate exactly what I was doing in Web 2. With less fear, too, because it has to be, like, you can't. There's no way you can control every single element of it. No, you can't. It's almost like, yeah. And in a way, it's similar. I've heard, last night I was at an event, and I heard Dmitri Cherniak talking about his generative pieces, and how he's sort of, you know, the art is in the code, and he codes it in such a way that he believes it's going to give certain outputs, and then he lets go of it, you know? And that is even more out of control, in a way, than mine, because mine is not generative in that sense. You still create each one. Right, I created each, right. And I wrote each piece, and recorded each piece knowing that it had to be modular, in a sense, that it had to fit together in all these different permutations.

[25:45] Keep the key structure, whatever, the same. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you know. And also, for my piece, I didn't give an option to, this is like a whole bunch of double negatives, I'm just like, I didn't give an option to not have vocals. Like, I don't know how else to explain it. Like, in all the other tracks. You have to have vocals. Yeah, bass and strings, drums and percussion, bells and synths, you can turn those off. You can have all the layers on, or you can have them all off. But with the acoustic guitar, and the vocal, the single vocal, you have to have those in every version, because I wanted to maintain the integrity of the song. If it had just been like an instrumental piece, I would have. And it's beautiful that you have that option, too. Yeah, so it's like you can do, yeah, you can really customize the experience, and then you kind of let go, and let the collectors have at it. That's what's really fun. Then you end up with this situation where you really are creating in an interactive, it's almost gamified way. Absolutely. And with the music projects on Async, there's also this limited edition element, which is another element.

[26:44] So in addition to being able to collect the stems, and the master layer, you also can collect these blank records. And then when you hear a mix you like, you mint it. So it's almost like recording blank CD, and recording it when you hear a song you like come on the radio or something, you know? Like creating your own mix tape back in the year, like on a record or something. Exactly, yeah. And so you mint the record, the permanent record, when you hear the mix that you like, which is controlled by other collectors. So you don't have the ability to go in and mix it yourself, but you have the ability to, when a mix comes up, you're like, oh, that sounds amazing, I'm gonna mint my record now. Which is also another very complicated process usually, which they're like totally simplifying through this process, yeah. Yeah, and then you end up with this almost generative project feel, because depending on how many other people mint that version too, you've got a rare, you know, you've got rare based on whether it's silver, gold, or platinum, then you've got rare based on maybe you're the only person who ever minted mix, you know, 40321 or whatever, you know? This specific combination.

[27:40] Yeah, yeah. So it's really fun. And they're, I can't say too much, but Async is about to further change the game for music NFTs. And I'm an independent artist, I work for myself, I've been asked to join companies before, and like I said, I've joined two projects, you know, I consult on other stuff, and I'm helping other artists, and I'm helping other companies, but I'm part of the team of two projects. One is Async, and one is WarpSound. And with Async, I was, the process of recording, of creating my project with Async was so inspiring that I really wanted to be part of their team. And I feel like that speaks to how inspiring the whole process is, and also how artist friendly they are. They're all about creating this experience for creators. And they're so, I don't know. It's really hard for me to talk about it because they're a platform for creators, by creators, and it's an experience unlike anything else I've ever had making my music. But it's so authentically Web3 as well, the fact that you can do a project on a platform, have it go really well, and then just work with the team directly. The fact that we have that access, because we're so early, right?

[28:52] It's still so early that we can be like, I like you guys. They're like, we like you too. Let's work together. Okay, that's it. That's so true. It actually went down in a tweet. I love that. Yeah, it actually happened in a tweet because I was sharing, I was tweeting about my project, and someone on the Async team tweeted, this is like the most Web3, this is like the most NFT story ever. Yeah, it was like, yeah, NFT Twitter. And so I tweeted, and then someone from the Async team said, Terra gets it. Everyone be more like Terra. And then I tweeted back, and I'm like, oh, all the other kids are gonna hate me now. And then I tweeted again, and I'm like, seriously, all I ever do is talk about Async? Any time I would go into Clubhouse, any time I would go, people would be like, Terra's here, tell us about Async. And I'm like, okay. So I said, all I ever do is talk about Async. I should just work with you guys. And then they're like, okay. Yeah. They were just sort of like, oh. And we were both sort of like, oh. Like we were kind of joking, and then we're just like, actually. And then I spoke with the founder, one of the founders, Lisa, and then we were sort of, we emailed back and forth a bit, and we were like, this makes sense.

[29:53] Let's do it. Yeah. And I think like, I mean, obviously for me, but maybe for some people watching, but I feel like you're one of the people who's really taken best advantage of the platform, and the way that it works. And the fact that you actually, you created that understanding for yourself. You taught yourself how to use this. And not just capitalized on it, but really innovated through this, through the technology that they created. Like you used their framework, and like actually pushed it to the extent that it can be pushed. I think all the artists on, I mean, they're very, the thing with the music side is it's still invite only. So I think they're very selective in making sure that every artist that has, there's only been a total of maybe 15 so far. And everybody has really done an incredible job on the music side. You know, and that's part of, it's still, they've made sure that the people who they approved to do it, really get what they're working with. And are actually gonna use it more properly. Yeah, exactly. So everybody, I have to say, I feel just like I'm in good company with like all of the musicians that have released Async music projects.

[30:51] I love it. Yeah. So you've been in this space, this space being like the internet space, let's say, for quite a while, right? You were very present in web two, and now web three. But you know, we've talked about this a little bit of, you know, like the 360 market company, like ideal. Yeah, so with Async, I think you've really taken advantage of a new technology. And I don't think you're stopping doing that either. You know, we have the metaverse, we have, you know, AI, we have augmented reality, we have all these new worlds that we're kind of really burgeoning into right now in the space. Do you have any other like favorite, you know, intersections that you're kind of exploring at this point in time? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I laugh because, you know, my brother kind of led the way for me in this world. So cool. Yeah, he was into, he started getting into AI, VR, gaming, blockchain. And it really is also connected, I mean. Oh yeah, yeah. And he started getting into that world, you know, years and years ago. And he started, he's an investor in the space now.

[31:47] And he started investing, you know, in these different web three companies before we were all talking about web three. And he kind of like led the, opened the door for me in that sense to say, I think there's something for you here. You know, you're one of the most brilliant creatives I've ever met. Go learn everything you can about this space and go be the smartest person in the room about it. So he, you know, he opened the door for, to the world by sort of laying down that challenge and setting that challenge for me saying, you know, you could really do something here, so go do it. And I, you know, prior to that was just really focused on being a singer songwriter, recording albums, uploading music to Spotify, trying to build my audience on web two and like touring. And we don't give ourselves time to like actually research the new tech until we do. Well, I didn't realize, I didn't know it would even be something I wanted to do. Right. Like I just was so stuck in this, you know, I think we talked about. Like, you know, like, you know, we talked about finance, like as creatives, we're like, why would we even?

[32:41] Right. That was, and that's the other thing too. We were sort of encouraged not to delve into that as creative. It's like you're either a creative, you're an artist or you're into money. Yeah. You know, and it's just like, actually that's, it's all creative energy. Yeah. The same energy that creates a song out of thin air is the same energy that like builds worlds and creates a business or. Andy Warhol, business is the finest form of art. There you go. Boom. I mean, yeah. And it's, we've really been, it's really been a disservice to artists to sort of separate us. And I think that it's also, I mean, I have a lot, a lot of theories about that, but I think it's like, It's on purpose. You know, yeah, it's a lot easier to control a really wildly creative, powerful group of people to like keep them struggling and keep them poor. You know, so anyway. Tea, tea. But like, yeah, so, so, you know, my brother kind of was into all this stuff before, but I wasn't, you know, I mean, I was into it when he would tell me about it, but I wasn't actively researching AI and AI music.

[33:33] And to be honest, as a, as an acoustic musician, I was terrified. It's the last thing on your mind, probably, yeah. Well, not only the last thing on my mind, but the last thing I wanted was like, wait, machines are going to be able to replace me? You know, like I don't want machines making music. That's my job. Yeah. You know, and understanding like the capabilities of AI, that it can, you know, match my voice. It can do, you know. And so I went through a phase where I was kind of terrified of that. And then I kind of came around to this place where I was like, no, these are tools. And AI doesn't work without humans. AI works in, connected with, you know. It's entirely dependent on the inputs, right? Like you can't just. Right, right. And we can help each other. You know what I mean? It's like, it's a tool. And so it's almost like, well, okay, if when cars were invented, if someone's just like, no, I'm just going to walk, thank you.

[34:27] I'm good, yeah, I have my horse. Okay, well, cars are here. And you know, you can get in one and have a nicer experience of getting, you know, five miles across town. So it's sort of like, how do we use the technology to enhance what we're doing? Absolutely. And how do we use it in a way that's beneficial to what we're doing as artists, as creators, as human beings, right? It's like we work together. We can work together. So my brother kind of planted those seeds of interest for years ago. But just recently, I got more interested in it. And I actually just joined the team of a project called WarpSound. And it's the company, Authentic Artists, has been developing this collective of AI artists that can actually perform. And it's all generated in real time. So it's not like, you know, the AI is making the music the same way that a DJ makes the music. You still have the live component, yeah. It's live, it's meant to be live. So, and they, in fact, they did something at Tribeca last year. And you can interact, it's audience interactive.

[35:22] You can interact through commands. They have a Twitch show every week now, and you can interact in the chat, you know, so the audience can determine, is it gonna be faster? Do they want slower? Do they want, you know, slime the beat? Like whatever, there's all these different commands. And so it's fully interactive, and the artists, our AI artists, are actually responding in real time the same way that a DJ would at, you know, a festival or whatever you see. Yeah, like you feel the energy of the audience. You feel where they're, what they want, where they're at. It's a new level of interactivity, yeah. Yeah, and so it's, so the AI artists are able to do the same thing. And so we're creating right now a PFP project around this collective of artists, and it's, you know, full commercial rights, and like the ability to generate full songs out of it. There's a lot of stuff I can't talk about yet, but it, to me, is the most exciting music development that I've seen yet in the space. And I feel like we're, like I said, I've joined two projects, this is one of them.

[36:18] So I'm pretty excited about it. Something you genuinely believe in, yeah. I think something that's really exciting with what you're doing, and just this whole like generative aspect, or the AI aspect in general, is the letting go of your creative baby, and putting it out into the zeitgeist when it's not even finished. You know, you finish all the elements that you have control over, and then you release that control to your collectors, to your audience. How has that process been for you, and is it, you know, is it a little bit of killing your darlings, or is it now starting to get native to you now that you've been doing it for a little while? Well I think, like, when I first released my Async project, it was a little scary. Because I'm like, what are we gonna do with this? Yeah, what are we gonna get stuck on? Like, I can't change the layers anymore. What if it gets stuck on a version I don't like? Because there's obviously, I didn't dislike anything, but there's versions. It's like with the PFP project. There's like the pretty ones, and the really pretty ones, you know? You always have your favorites, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so I'm like, I know which versions are my favorite, and what combinations of elements I like best, and I don't get to choose now.

[37:11] So I was a little scared. I was like, oh God, what if they leave it on something that like is just like kind of meh, and like, you know, and I just got really comfortable with it. And I think like something that happens in this space a lot is this idea of building in public, and we get really comfortable with it, because a lot of things are a little wonky right now. Nothing's perfect yet. We're still at the very beginning, yeah. Especially like AR, all these things, yeah. Anything that's complicated. I mean, it's, and everybody's like, we're early. It's like, yeah, we're early. Like that's what everybody says, because it's true. And I think that what I really appreciate as a sort of recovering perfectionist is the opportunity to let things be a little messy, you know? Like it is a little messy right now. Perfection doesn't exist, first of all. And like I have lived so much of my life as a perfectionist, and it's really held me back, and led to, you know, a lot of unhappiness. And so kind of being able to say, yeah, you know, everybody, everybody's a little, everything is a little imperfect right now.

[38:08] And that's part of the beauty of it. And that's the space. I mean, like the fact that we've been so experimental, so openly, I feel like has been how this space has grown over the past few years. People don't even realize like the crypto punks were not meant to be given away for free. They tried to sell them. People got refunded by accident. And now it's the most successful project in the space. I mean, so. Yes, little mistakes, like little missteps, little like happy accidents, little things, you know. And just the concept, you know, when I first heard someone say building in public, I was like, oh my God, I love building in public. It takes the pressure off. Like with WarpSound, we're building in public. We're starting our Twitch show. There are bumps in the road. There are things that, you know, we're using bleeding edge technology. Nobody knows everything. Like there's, it's impossible, yeah. So we're innovating on the fly. And by the time we, you know, by the time we drop the PFP, everything's gonna be ironed out. And it's gonna be, I have a feeling it's going to go really well. I believe in that. But it's like, you know, in the meantime, yeah, we're, I built the Discord. There were things that I had to change, you know, while there were people in there. And I'm like, hey everybody, sorry if you got locked out of this for a second. And you know, and I feel like we all understand that.

[39:11] And it also humanizes everything in a way. It's like, because I don't, I mean, there's something beautiful about when things function absolutely perfectly from the very beginning. But there's also something really great about seeing a team of people coming together to do something that hasn't been done before and sort of stumbling through it a little, you know? Like I love that personally. It's like when you see, I remember what the first time I saw one of my favorite artists mess up on stage and start over three times. I saw Radiohead, yeah, I saw Radiohead. Thom Yorke started a song. I can't remember which song it was. But it was one of his, like, one of his, like, bulletproof, I think it might have been Bulletproof. Something like a huge hit, yeah. Huge song. And I think it was Bulletproof. And he got into the beginning of it and he was like, oh, I have to, he stopped it, he's like, I have to start again. And then he started it again and they messed it up again. And he's like, oh, I'm really sorry, you know? And then, yeah, and I actually saw, oh my god, that happened the other night at the Hollywood Bowl. I saw James Blake.

[40:07] Yeah, love. Love James Blake. But he started, so he was playing with an orchestra and clearly not his most comfortable thing. But he was trying, you know? And he was playing with the Hollywood Bowl Orchestra and they got to retrograde, like his biggest hit. And he had to start it over. And it just like, you know, I think as a performer, that was always my nightmare. But when you're in the audience and that happens, you just feel closer to the artist. You're part of it. Yeah. Like, I was like, yeah. Everybody was, everybody was like, you got this, girl. And I feel like that is the funny thing, is as creators, we want everything to be so perfect. But actually, I think what the audience and what our supporters and what our community actually wants is sometimes to see us as humans, you know, because it humanizes all of us.

[41:01] 100%. And I mean, you segued perfectly into what I was about to ask. You know, you already talked about this idea of community being a part of the process and how the projects you buy into, you know, you're part of that community. But I feel like a big part of this, you know, when you build Discord servers and do things, the community is part of the building process. And if something doesn't go perfectly right, they're gonna be the ones to tell you that and they're gonna help you fix it, essentially. So I love this idea of building in public and I think that that perfectly, you know, encapsulates what we're doing right now in the space. So I won't keep you here all day. It's such a pleasure to talk to you about all of this. It's so good to meet you. Yeah, it's so nice to meet you in person. You've been, like, hearing voices in the house for the last, so nice. I know, it's nice to finally, like, put a face. I love it. But for anybody here who's watching who might not be familiar, where can they find you online and is there any project right now that you'd like to plug? Well, so, I mean, Twitter is, and it's so funny because I gave up on Twitter over the last few years. I know, and then now it's back and I'm like, okay, well, I used to live tweet the Oscars when I was a kid and I didn't touch it for, like, five years. Yeah, I did it when I was really actively trying to promote, you know, music stuff. And then I'm just like, this is all for politics.

[42:05] Like, I kind of signed off in the 2016 elections. I was like, yeah, I'm done. Yeah, totally done now. And then, you know, last year, she's like, oh my God, we have to get on Twitter again? So now I love it again. And I'm on there all the time. And that's the best place. I've got a sort of a link tree. It's not a link tree, but a link tree in my bio. And it will link to everything I'm doing. We'll put it right here so that you guys can access it. Great, yeah. And please do check out the WarpSound community. That to me is like one of the most exciting things I've ever been part of. Super cool. And artists, please check out, artists and collectors, please check out Async. It's just unbelievable, inspiring. And yeah, I've got a lot of other stuff I'm working on too. So thank you for asking. No, of course, make sure to follow along. Terra is incredible. One of my favorite artists in the space right now. You're doing like incredibly innovative work. And that's like, you know, this, you said bleeding edge, but I mean, we really are at, you know, nothing that we're doing right now has been done before essentially.

[42:59] So it's very, very exciting. And congratulations on everything that you're doing. So thank you all for watching. This has been NFTS.WTF. My name is David Cash. I'm here with Terra and we'll see you later. Take care. Bye from New York.