Fanny Lakoubay on Advising NFT Artists and Collectors | Unreleased NFTS.WTF Interview

NFTS-WTF Interviews
Written By David Cash

Previously unreleased: this interview is published here for the first time.Art advisor Fanny Lakoubay on helping collectors and artists enter the NFT space, and what the art market should keep, drop, and rewrite.Interviewed by David Cash. Book David to host, moderate, or speak: https://davidcash.ca

Recorded live in April 2022 at NFC Lisbon, Fanny tells David Cash how she moved from the traditional art market into blockchain in 2018, organized panels, conferences, and a crypto and digital art fair in New York, consulted for NFT platforms, and then set up an art advisory for collectors and artists. They discuss early NFT art as the birth of an art movement where artists collect each other, whether traditional players are simply adding NFTs as a new tab on their websites, artists who now have to act as their own CTO and CMO, galleries losing artists who want to mint, buyer's premiums on digital works, new sales mechanisms such as drops, Dutch auctions, and open editions, artist DAOs, and a collector's club she is starting with French collectors.

Watch on YouTube

Chapters

  1. 00:00 Intro: Fanny Lakoubay, art advisor
  2. 0:34 From the traditional art market to blockchain
  3. 1:16 Panels, conferences, and a crypto and digital art fair
  4. 1:35 Consulting for NFT platforms
  5. 2:05 Starting an art advisory for collectors and artists
  6. 2:24 The artist advisor
  7. 3:55 Business school, the secondary market, and missing the artists
  8. 5:29 NFTs as the birth of an art movement
  9. 7:18 A new tab on the website or a new art market?
  10. 7:55 Big tech, entertainment, and a coordination problem
  11. 8:37 What to keep and what to change from the art world
  12. 9:59 Artists as their own CTO and CMO
  13. 10:50 Galleries, mega galleries, and artists going it alone
  14. 11:35 Patience and buyer's premiums on NFTs
  15. 12:22 Rewriting art market rules from the 1800s
  16. 13:18 Drops, mints, and the floor price
  17. 14:35 Dutch auctions, open editions, and burning unminted works
  18. 15:11 Artist DAOs
  19. 15:49 Advisors as the new intermediaries
  20. 16:30 A collector's club for French collectors
  21. 18:08 Collector relations and collecting DAOs
  22. 18:59 Where to find Fanny

Speakers

  • David Cash, interviewer and editor-in-chief, NFTS.WTF
  • Fanny Lakoubay, art advisor

Key topics

  • Art advisory for NFT collectors and artists
  • Moving from the traditional art market to blockchain
  • Early NFT art as an art movement
  • Artists who collect each other
  • Intermediaries, galleries, and disintermediation
  • Artists running their own marketing and technology
  • Buyer's premiums on digital art
  • New sales mechanisms: drops, Dutch auctions, and open editions
  • Floor prices and how NFTs change pricing
  • Artist DAOs and collecting DAOs
  • Collector's clubs and onboarding new collectors

In their words

"The art market is like a small pie and everybody's fighting for a little piece of it, and now we're building a new pie." Fanny Lakoubay

"We just all have to be a bit more patient than we are." Fanny Lakoubay

How to cite

APA: Cash, D. (2022). Fanny Lakoubay on advising NFT artists and collectors [Video]. YouTube. https://youtu.be/QfdrndckVDk

Chicago: Cash, David. "Fanny Lakoubay on Advising NFT Artists and Collectors." Recorded April 2022, Lisbon. YouTube video, 19:44. https://youtu.be/QfdrndckVDk.

About NFTS.WTF

NFTS.WTF was a Web3 culture publication and interview series edited by David Cash. It covered artists, collectors, and builders during the 2021–2022 NFT boom. It ran for two years and closed after a board decision by the NFTS DAO, which left many of its interviews unpublished.

Recording details

Recorded April 2022 at NFC Lisbon, Lisbon, Portugal. Previously unreleased. Published 2026 with chapters and captions.

Transcript

Machine-transcribed and reviewed. Timestamps link to the moment in the video.

[0:04] Hello everybody, welcome back to NFTS.WTF. My name is David Cash, your editor-in-chief and I'm joined here today live at NFC Lisbon with Fanny Lakoubay, art advisor with Lao Art and I'd say an art world legend per se, moving to the NFT space now and helping a lot of artists make that transition. Fanny, we'd love to hear a little bit about your background just from your mouth of course, from the source and let people know a little bit how you moved from the traditional art world into this NFT space. Yeah, so I have been in like the non-glamorous art market where it's like now what people call art and tech but like did not call it at the time anything, it was kind of like the non-glamorous people who did not have a VIP card to anything, right? That was me. And then in 2018 I left Christie's and that's kind of when like people were shouting the word blockchain around, not for NFTs but for digital

[1:02] art but for blockchain-based registries for physical paintings but everybody at the time was already like, oh yeah, I love the blockchain. Because they're just thinking pure provenance, they're not thinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah and like but everybody was kind of like, did not know what it was so we started doing like small panels of discussions and then conferences and then that's kind of how we ended up doing the first crypto and digital art fair called CADAF and I was in New York, the first one in 2019 and at the same time I consulted for many like platforms like NFT platforms and there were mostly like developers were like, hey, we're two dudes like white male developers like you go to the conferences and talk about art and blockchain. What do people want? Yeah, and it was kind of like, oh, you're a woman, you're actually not shy and like you're probably going to be the only person comfortable

[1:55] enough to speak to people. So that was me at DEFCON in 2019. But I'm thrilled to be here. Yeah, so and then earlier this year like I when collectors joined the fun like and more artists got confused this is where like we set up like a really like art advisory and it's really four collectors were entering the space and four artists were like trying to see where they start. And so I was just telling you like this is like where I focus on the collectors and I have a crypto artist, Lapa Mignon, who used to be my roommate in Prague when we were 20. That's tough. I know. And I got her into like NFTs like in 2019. You're a good friend. So, oh my God, yes. And now she had her drop on Nifty Gateway and like, you know, like different things. And so now she's like her official title, which I'm amazed that this title doesn't exist yet in the art market, but it is artist advisor because she's like, you know, it's a crypto artist and she's now like onboarding new artists and we do

[2:59] workshops. Because she's speaking from first hand. Of course she's like and when an artist is like, oh, how did you do that? Well, she's like, well, I tried this, I tried that and I like this and I did not like that. And this is also why I don't consult for platforms anymore because then it's like, it's a little like, you know, mushti washi like mushti washi, mushti washi. Yeah, you got it. Mushti washi. And not, you know, wanting to be like straightforward into like what we recommend. No, I like that. A bunch of things I want to touch on. I love the fact now you're segmenting your company, you know, as we continue to grow in this space. Now people are kind of like taking the kind of infrastructure steps. But just explain how that all makes sense for you as well. I think something that a lot of people can resonate with in this space is whatever we did previously very much helps, doesn't dictate, but helps with what we're doing

[3:43] now. And allows, you know, the people who have a broad background to bring those skills into the NFT. Yeah. And obviously you worked in the art world previously on a whole bunch of different levels, you know, and also at a bunch of big companies. Do you think that that experience and maybe if you want to touch on anything specific, help with what you're doing now? Yeah, I think it's like, I mean, I went to business school and graduated in like consulting management. So it's like the consulting part has come from there, you know, being organized. Like, I'm half German, so I like, you know, like very organized things. And then like I, I mean, what I did not like in the, when I was in the art market was I was working for like Artnet, which is like a secondary marketplace and auction house. And then like, and Christie's in the auction house, they're both secondary market, which means that like it's resell of paintings and artworks.

[4:35] And you don't have direct relationship with artists. So it's like, I could have sold... But for collector relations, that's like the turning of a lifetime. Yes, but it's already done, right? Like you're kind of like the artist or brand. So it's like if I had sold vacuum cleaners, it would kind of have been the same thing, you know, less glamorous. Expensive vacuum cleaner, I mean. Exactly. I mean, it's like a, you know, a diamond. You know, like go cheaper, go like, you know, like, I don't know. Yeah, whatever vacuum is cheaper. I don't know. What else? And so I really missed that, right? And so when I finally entered and like met all the artists and you know, at first it was like, it's still very small artist community where there's like a lot of noise on the PFPs, like a profile picture, the collectible. A lot of people are making NFTs, but not a lot of them are artists actually.

[5:23] Exactly. And it's like, and it's very, it's still very small, right? Like the artists were doing that. And at first it's like the birth of any art movement where you're like, well, they're kind of doing something new. So if you go back to the, exactly. And if you go back to the impressionists, it's like, they're like, a small group of artists were doing something new and they, and everybody thinks they're crazy. They're refused by all the salon and they collect each other. Exactly. And, and so if you look at like the earlier collection, like Mattia Cutini, like Hakatao, like Ilan Caten, like the old people were like, if you look at their collection on Super Rare, they're like the most amazing collections because they own all the OG artists. They collect each other's work. Exactly. And so, and so it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it is still at that step where like, yes, collectors came in like, and investors and more

[6:16] people, but it's like still something in the making. So it's like still something new and people are open to talk about it because we all feel like we're doing, we're building something new, right? Like, and, and it's very different from like anything, you know, like the art market is like a small pie and everybody's fighting for a little piece of it. And now we're building a new pie, right? Or we're baking a new cake. I don't know, like it's like, and, It's a cooking metaphor we are creating. I'm French, so it's always like apples and oranges or like kiwis and bananas. Like, I don't know. So, so no, I mean, and that's like very exciting. And, and, and to be honest, it's also like how it's not a given. We were all drinking the Kool-Aid, right? Like, oh, it's so great. Web3, like whatever, like tattooing, like, you know, like whatever we're doing right now.

[7:05] But it's, it's, I got seven tattoos because of crypto. Not crypto tattoos, but yeah, yeah. My husband is like, you're having your teenager crisis. And no, but it's like joke aside. I think there's really still this question of like, are we just putting the art market on the blockchain or like adding a new category of words that is being sold right now? Because this is what it feels like with traditional art players. Is that another tab to the website? Exactly. Yeah, it's a new tab. Like it's a new tab. Like you have like sculptures, like prints, paintings, and now you have NFTs. But it's like, it's not a given that there's like more that, you know, is being done, like on the social aspect and like, and making things better with Web3 tools. And I think we're, you know, it's, and you see that with, with metaverse and, and, and companies like meta.

[8:00] And actually I recommend to anybody to go to like a VC talk or like a, an NFT LA like conference because it is scary, but it's also what's happening now. It's like, it's becoming like, you know, used, I mean, NFTs used for a franchise, for like Hollywood, like type of like entertainment and, and, and licensing. And, and, and if we like don't help or like try to coordinate, I think it's a real coordination problem because we're like, oh, it's decentralized. Like we don't want to be centralized, but then it's like, Nothing's going to change. Somebody does something and the people are going to do something, or the people in this room and people in these types of conferences. And actually you transitioned perfectly to the one thing I wanted to ask you. So you mentioned the metaverse and you know, I even consider like the metaverse as like, you know, this space is very much the metaverse. When we're interacting in this space, you know, for me that is metaverse.

[8:48] And when I talk about metaverse solutions, like the central land or spatial, we talk about, we have the option, we're creating this world before us right now. So we have the option to pick what we want to keep and pick what we want to get rid of and replace. So I feel like as a, you know, as an art advisor, especially with somebody who, especially from somebody from your perspective, who's worked in the traditional art world, I'm sure that there's a lot that you see, love this, love this, love this. We cannot continue with that. Do you have any like key points that are maybe for you, like definitely want to keep this from the art world or on the flip side also definitely want to get this out of the art world? Well, I mean this, you know, it's like the ethos of the blockchain was to like disintermediate transactions, right? So it's like bring back the value to the creator, great. So now like this is like sort of happening, except we forgot that

[9:38] like some intermediaries like are not all evil, right? And that like artists... No customer support is not necessarily the best. Yes, exactly. So it's not because customer support is bad that you have to like get rid of it, right? You have to change it. And now it's like feels like, oh, like we don't have like galleries. And yeah, and probably we will come back because it's like, you know, you have to go to one extreme and then come back to it. But now it's like you see like artists are like more confused than even six months ago because it's like they're on their own and really trying to be their chief like technology officer, their chief marketing officer. They've had some success now because they have this, they have a fan base, they have a community, it's basically they have a whole company, but they're sometimes completely on their own. Exactly. But the ones who succeeded are still the loudest, right?

[10:24] Like there's the one who can like control like social media voice and even the one who grew now like, you know, Trevor Jones, for example, just hired like a social media like manager. So it's like hiring people to manage your community is fine. But it's like when you start, you're still like... There's a discussion outside like with someone who's a painter and she's just like, I don't know anything. I want to try an experiment, but like I need help. And right now there's nothing to help them. And at the same time you have like galleries who are like seeing the mega auction houses, the mega galleries, you know, Pace and the entire departments to build like platforms. And they're like, how do we do now? Like what's in it for us? Because all their artists are actually leaving the galleries because the artists were represented by a gallery.

[11:16] Right. Go and ask their gallery like, so how do you think I should make an NFT? And the gallery is like, I don't know, what's an NFT? And then the artists leave and like do it on their own. But these artists would be ready to give like some percentage for someone to help them. So again, I think it's like it's all going to happen. We just will have to be a bit more patient than we are. I don't think we're very patient. But it's also if we're too patient, then we're just going to reproduce. Like, you know, like auction houses selling like NFTs with like 25% buyer premium, which is stupid, right? Like, I mean, this is like you pay an auction house 25% buyer's premium because there's like marketing that they do. Like they bring collectors. And magazines. There's like print, like marketing, like they ship the painting or like the artwork. And store it and it's super expensive.

[12:09] Like it's digital, I guess. Like a transfer wallet. Exactly. So it's like it has to evolve. But it's like, yeah, it's not going to be easy. And obviously, like don't. You touched on one thing that I want to mention, especially with your background in the art market as well. You know, like I love to mention the fact that the art world, the art market up until very recently didn't change at all since the late 1800s. And literally, I know because, you know, if you study art history or look in the world, we're literally still looking at handwritten memos by Baudelaire and people of what to do and how to price and what the artist gallery relationship is supposed to be. So how do you, obviously that's incredibly antiquated. But what do you feel like, now obviously we can rewrite the rules. Do you feel like artists are doing that? Are we all doing that? How do you see, you know, these rules being destroyed and

[12:57] rewritten? Well, I think it's like fascinating to you. As you said, like it's like nothing has changed, right? But it's like looking at new mechanisms. So it's like, okay, like does this snobbism say like, oh, PFP, blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, not art, but it's like. Fluxism. Oh, yeah. Impressiveism. But it's also like, if you look at what they've done really well is like sales mechanisms. Like drops or like the minting like strategy and like. The websites and the actual how they built it is great. And so it's like there are tools that like now you see artists like appropriate themselves and like, and actually, you know, like do like, you know, themselves, but not with like PFP projects, but like their project. And, you know, Async Blueprint is like a simple example.

[13:49] It's like they just gave access to like that technology to artists who want to make a profile picture project. And that is amazing. I mean, there's a lot of things that like, you know, from the blockchain, like that came from the blockchain that kind of changed the way like pricing works as well in terms of like being obsessed with the Genesis anything, like the Genesis block, like it's like something. Or even like a floor price. Like I feel like not very many people consider like, they look like last auction price or something, but not floor price. Yeah. What's your cheapest work? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's a few things. So it's like a mix of like, okay, like a mix of words, right? It's like more fluid, right? So it's like, okay, maybe there's less line between a designer, an artist, like a collectible designer and so on. And same thing with the mechanisms.

[14:36] Like there might be less like, you know, now like artists are trying Dutch auction or silent auction or like open edition is a new thing as well. I actually love them. It's pretty cool, right? And now like I think FXHash actually also introduced this thing where like if by the end of the minting period, like not all of the works have been minted, they burn the rest. Right. Which is brilliant, you know, because then you change the edition like size. And that's impossible in the real world unless you want to literally, I mean, you can pull a Damien Hirst, have fire all over your artwork. Yeah, but it's, you know, and, and, and it's a, so that's, that's interesting. And, and, and, you know, things like artist DAOs where there's actually a cyberbat DAOs talking and it's like how you, it's like a cooperative of artists, but they like allow Kenza is actually our social media man.

[15:26] Really? Oh, hi. No, I mean, I'm in love with cyberbat DAOs because it's a, it's just a good example of like you manage a treasury and like they manage to secure a booth at like one of the main like art fair for cyberbat DAOs, like for artists who would never had been, have been in a, in an art fair before. They can't afford it. No, no, no. Yeah. And, and so, so this type of thing is, is you know, quite fascinating. And I want to, I want to end on one point you said so perfectly. So obviously, you know, we're considering this gallery system that's changing now and we're talking about direct, like almost like direct to consumer, but for the art world and what that relationship looks like for artists between them and the collector. And when we're moving away from an infrastructure, like a gallery, I feel like that's where people like yourself, people like myself, intermediaries, you know, helpful voices, advisors, et cetera, come into the play

[16:14] because artists need a hand, but they don't necessarily need an entire company to help them and come and do things. So maybe just speaking on some of the work that you're doing now, how do you see what you're doing and other advisors in the space really kind of allowing things to move more quickly, if that makes sense? I mean, the different experiments, right? It's true that like when you're an advisor, it's like one person at a time, right? Like, so it's like, okay, like, so we're actually trying something new with more of a collector's club where it's not all, what we notice with collectors is that it's still very heavy lifting on their end, right? So it's like they consult with us and it's like a long-term relationship. The biggest collectors do a lot of research and a lot of due diligence. But they do, but it's like also here with NFTs, it's like I don't purchase something for them, right? So it's like they have to be in front of the computer.

[17:04] They have to decide. I tell them the stories, the concepts about the artist. So we're doing this, we're starting with French collectors because that's kind of where I got a lot of requests that I could not handle, and it's like pulling- We're seeing here so many French collectors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we're doing this like club deal slash collector's club where it's like we have like a treasure in their management where we do a lot of the heavy lifting, but we also like do workshops. A little bit like an art salon with artists. But for collectors. But for collectors. And so like they can vote on like what we decide to purchase and we share the collection that we show in the metaverse. So it's like without having them to be like I need to purchase a parcel, like show my collection in the metaverse, but like kind of having this introduction. Yeah, you remove some of that friction.

[17:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like we'll start with like 10 to 15 collectors. And there's already a lot of people. It's kind of like a, yeah. I feel like collector relations is obviously something we have to change because it's a different relationship. It's a different means of communication. And galleries had 100 plus years, some of them, to build this Rolodex of families and collectors and people. But now that nobody's done that in the space yet, so I feel like that's super necessary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like the more the merrier, right? Like it's kind of like where, Please, you want to buy art? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but also the more like experiments on like, you know, this flamingo dao. And like in the US, like they pool like resources and collectors. Like it's like art is going to be like, Red dao, unicorn dao. You see these acquisition projects. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's fine.

[18:41] Like art dao just launched like yesterday. And so yeah, the more the merrier because it's like we're all going to experiment iterate and go from there. But if we just all like just be like, oh, I'm a gallery. Okay, this is great. Let's do it all again. Back to the 19th century. One thing I want to mention just to wrap this up, a lot of the people in our dao and in our community are NFT collectors on all different levels. And I'm sure some of them might be interested in what you have going on. Where can people reach out to you or find what you're doing? I mean, I'm not cool enough to have a pseudonym. So I'm Fanny Lacoubais literally everywhere. And lalaarts.io is like where artists can actually book a workshop online and yeah. Super. Artists, collectors, hit up Fanny. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time.

[19:28] As always, we're here with NFPF on the BPF. My name is David Cash. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. I love it.

David Cash https://www.davidcash.ca