Don Diablo: The Future of Music Is Fine Art | NFT Magazine at NFT NYC 2022

DJ, producer, and digital artist Don Diablo joins David Cash for NFT Magazine, recorded live in New York at Samsung 837 during NFT NYC in June 2022 and presented by Spatial, the metaverse for culture. Don goes back to the fully animated music video he made at 17, explains how the pandemic became a forced sabbatical after years of nonstop touring, and walks through Hexagonia, the world his fans have built with him. He also talks about Sotheby's, public installations in China and Hong Kong, creating a piece for one person, and why he wants sound treated like painting and sculpture.

Watch on YouTube

Chapters

1. 00:00 Live from Samsung 837 for NFT Magazine
2. 00:38 A fully animated music video at 17
3. 03:08 Moving between mediums, and 20 aliases
4. 06:31 Clubhouse and the NFT community
5. 08:19 The pandemic as a forced sabbatical
6. 13:22 Making his first NFT: physical, digital, and sound
7. 17:10 World building and Hexagonia
8. 20:44 Bringing fans along, and putting value on music
9. 23:13 Public art at the scale of buildings
10. 26:53 Creating for one person versus a crowd
11. 29:15 Future house and the value of time
12. 30:56 The wind at his back in the art world
13. 33:41 Saying no to protect time to create
14. 36:22 Sotheby's and crossing from music into fine art
15. 40:34 A museum for listening
16. 42:12 A universal audience
17. 46:28 Justdiggit and NFTs for good
18. 48:35 Where to find Don's work

Speakers

• Don Diablo, DJ, producer, and digital artist
• David Cash, host, NFT Magazine

Key topics

• Digital art in Don Diablo's career long before NFTs
• The pandemic pause and creating without pressure
• Hexagonia, the Hexagonians, and building a world with fans
• Physical, digital, and audio components in one artwork
• Making work for one collector versus a festival crowd
• Crossing from music into fine art with Sotheby's
• NFTs, community, and charity

In their words

"when you start saying no, people start saying yes." (Don Diablo)

"business is the finest form of art." (Don Diablo)

How to cite

APA: Cash, D. (2022). Don Diablo: The Future of Music Is Fine Art | NFT Magazine at NFT NYC 2022 [Video]. YouTube. https://youtu.be/MF0gCbiDuCI

Chicago: Cash, David. "Don Diablo: The Future of Music Is Fine Art | NFT Magazine at NFT NYC 2022." Recorded June 23, 2022, at Samsung 837, New York. YouTube video, 49:22. https://youtu.be/MF0gCbiDuCI.

Recording details

Recorded: June 23, 2022, at Samsung 837, New York

Format: Live podcast recording for NFT Magazine, presented by Spatial

Length: 49:22 · Language: English

Hosted by David Cash

About the series

In June 2022, the NFT Magazine podcast broadcast live from Samsung 837 in New York's Meatpacking District during NFT NYC, presented by Spatial. David Cash hosted conversations with musicians, artists, and builders about crypto art, the metaverse, and culture. The episodes are archived on David Cash's YouTube channel.

About this record

Presented with framing, speaker name tags, and captions added in 2026. Captions were machine-transcribed and reviewed by hand, with names checked against speaker introductions. Speaker roles are as of the recording date and may have changed since.

Shared for educational, research, and archival purposes. For corrections, name spellings, or removal requests: david@cashlabs.io

Transcript

Machine-transcribed and reviewed. Timestamps link to the moment in the video.

[0:00] Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everybody else who does not choose to identify. My name is David Cash. I'm here live in New York City at Samsung 837, brought to you by Spatial.io, the metaverse for culture. And I'm here for NFT Magazine, the definitive source of crypto art. And I'm joined today with one of my favorite NFT artists, Don Diablo. How are you doing today, Don? Sleepy. Oh, yeah. It has been a week. We're here at NFT NYC. You've been going nonstop, haven't you? It's been a little crazy. We also crammed it in between some dates in Canada, as well as Miami, Boston. Got to get the North American dates in while you can. Yeah, it's intense. It's intense. Amazing. Well, I've been aware of your work for a while. We've gotten to chat a few times. But you have a career going back a long time. And I'd say the technology aspect of your work goes back a lot longer than your NFT work dates back. So I'm curious if we could go a couple

[0:51] steps back before we talk about what's happening right now. When would you say that digital art began to really impact your life? Well, I think actually, already from an early age, when I saw the first Star Wars, to be honest, and then I think when I was 17, I did my first music video, which was fully animated. I sort of began as a video director. I think I saved to create the video, I saved for maybe 18 months, had like four jobs, because the record label wasn't going to pay for anything. It was like a whole political statement. If you look back at the video, it could actually still be an NFT right now. But yeah, I think that was the first thing where I was like, okay, I'm going to make like a full three and a half minutes digitally animated, create a whole new world, actually, a whole new metaverse when I was 17. That's awesome. And for your creative process around that, did it start with the music and then you created a world to fit the

[1:50] music? Or did you create the world and the music kind of simultaneously? It's actually a good question. Funny enough, it's actually more, it's quite often it's the other way around. I have an idea in my head for a video and a story. And then I make a song around that. So in this case, it was like that. The track was called Useless. You kind of see this world where everyone's the same, they're all moving in the same direction, they're all wearing the same clothes. Basically, I'm walking around as well, but I kind of, my head is a question mark. So it's a CGI question mark where sometimes turns into an exclamation mark. I'm trying to go the other way, but it's hard in this society where everyone's going in the same direction. It can totally be an NFT. Also, the concept of history is nice when it's like over 20 years old and there's a story behind it and it's a part of your legacy. I think that's, to me, I think a lot of people

[2:52] are like, oh shit, I got to create an NFT now. What's happening? There's a way here to be a part of this. But for me, it should really be about you and your personality and your story. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you've had quite a career. You've done a whole bunch of things. I think one of the things I personally respect about you the most is that you kind of move between genres and not just genres, but full mediums, just like on a daily basis. Most people know you as a musical artist. Now, I'd say a lot of people listening to this podcast primarily know you as an NFT artist. When did that transition begin to happen? When did you really turn on to NFTs? Well, I think the thing is before this whole sort of creative and cultural shift, you had to be one or the other, right? There wasn't that sort of thing where you could be that sort of omni-lural creative artist. You could be making music, video.

[3:50] I mean, Michelangelo, but it's not. Nobody thinks about it. And he came from an advertisement. He managed Velvet Underground. He was in art as well as music and everything in between. But I think that a time came where we all had to be pigeonholed. So I kind of just chose a route of like, hey, am I going to go when I was young? So I have to be in an audiovisual journalism. I went to film school, but I was like, okay, what can I do by myself? Because when you're on film, it's a team effort. And my ambitions were high. They were big. I was just a kid in a small town in the east of the Netherlands. And I was like, cool, I need to work really hard to make this work. Music is probably going to be the best vehicle for me to have an international career. And that kind of worked out because it's a solo effort. I think when I was between 13 and 15, I found out you could make music with a computer. I didn't need a band. I tried to find a band. I was like, okay, somebody wants to play

[5:05] drums. Who wants to play guitar? Couldn't find anyone. And then I saw this video. I was like, wow, we can make music with a computer. This is insane. So I bought an Atari and just started to play around. I bought an Amiga. And from there on, the whole idea of what you can do with a computer just kind of like blew my mind. And then I was like, okay, it's better to do this by yourself because I film and a lot of other disciplines are you're very dependent on other people. And the great thing about electronic music was like, you can reinvent yourself over and over. So I think I had like 20 different names. One name I was creating chemical beats and hip hop, rock music, but also like hard gabber music, music, techno. Yeah. Oh, on the different aliases. One of the aliases was when I was 15, it was like a 40 year old guy from Detroit.

[6:07] And that's what you used to, you know, that was a story in the back of the vinyl and people were like, oh, I love this guy. Dave Mitchell. Wow, man. It's just funny. Yeah. That's what it is. I think now with art, it's as this goes for NFTs as well. It's not necessarily just about the art, it's about who is creating the art, right? It's about the story. And I think this was the first time in history for me as well where I had the opportunity to create a community and also to have a community back me, help me out after I help them out and we help each other out. And we created a whirlwind, you know, a snowball that's rolling down the hill. And that was new, you know, that was new. We could do it, help each other and we could tell a real story. You know, when Clubhouse came up, people would listen for hours, you know, to an actual story that would be human conversations and we would be really helping each other. That was something

[7:05] that was new. And that's when NFTs really started to, I guess, be the vehicle of this independent art form. Yeah. For me, it was like, I was like, okay, I'm going back to school, right? I was in my house inside, not touring. Friends were off doing other stuff. Usually sometimes I didn't leave the house for seven days. And I was just in Clubhouse in all these rooms, just listening in for months on end. And at some point someone said, are you Don Diablo? They brought me on stage and we started talking. And then, you know, after being there with the community, for the community, for a couple of months, they decided they, you know, we're going to help you, you know? And that's kind of how everything started rolling. That's awesome. We've talked a little bit about these early days of NFTs quite a bit, but I think that, you know, something that's always important to mention, especially in this point in time is, you know, where we are kind of in history. So I know that you were

[8:02] touring a ton kind of nonstop all the time pre-pandemic, like right up until the pandemic. And then, you know, everything stopped, obviously, in terms of the world. But then, you know, I think a lot of us are kind of things that, you know, I mentioned Michelangelo in passing, but, you know, that's when I really believe that the digital Renaissance kind of began, you know, this ability for us to start doing all of these different things because we all of a sudden had endless amounts of time. So I'm curious from your perspective, and, you know, it's a little bit of a leading question because I know a little bit of the answer, but I'm curious from your perspective what that transition was like from just being on tour, tour, tour to having this time to yourself and, I guess, having to reevaluate what you wanted to do. Oh, it opened my mind because I think I slept generally like maybe, you know, two to three

[8:47] hours max for maybe 15 years straight. How many months of the year were you touring? Nonstop. That's the difference between a band and an electronic musician. There's always a demand. You have to work on your fan base in Asia, your fan base in North America, South America, Middle America, Europe, Australia. It's nonstop. Then you have the online community. I mean, you make a weekly radio show that, you know, you spend a lot of time on. I run a record label, you have a clothing line, and then you need to make music, and the music needs to have a story. So there literally wasn't, you know, any time to even be in a relationship or see your friends or spend time with your family. It was just, you were just out there kind of like surviving. Then when the world came to a standstill, it was like, this is probably the forced sabbatical that I needed. And, you know, that's, it was hard for me at first because I was like,

[9:49] sleep, how does it work again? You know, am I supposed to do that? But a lot of the art that I'm making now comes from that, you know, comes from the ideas that came from that. I've got a new piece that I created, which is basically, it's a 24 hour flight, an airplane window, because I, it was really hard for me to sleep in a bed for so many days in a row. You weren't used to it? No, I'm not used to it. And I think, you know, for me, that was such a change that not having pressure and also creating music again, not thinking about what are my fans going to think? What will the record label think? What will my management think? What will the haters think? It was just kind of like, I didn't need to think about, is it going to stream well? Is it going to perform well at festivals or in the live circuit? It's more like, hey, I'm just going to go back. Like when I was first started making music,

[10:49] I released my first record when I was 13. You know, it's a time where you just create stuff without pressure. You make what you want to make. You make what you want to make, but there's no goal. There's also no way to see a result. Now, if you see results, you're like, how many streams? How many views? How many likes? How many? Did it sell well? Yeah. Did it sell? So, there are no analytics. There's just a creative mind and it feels like there are no limits. And I kind of just went back to being that kid, you know, and that was the best thing that could have happened to me. Like, I started feeling like a stretch of happiness again. I was like, oh, shit, this is what it feels like. I forgot about that, you know? And then I was like, wow, this is kind of what I worked for and worked towards my whole life. Trying to master all these disciplines of editing video, creating digital art, as well as making sound and making music, making fashion, creating stories. I was like,

[11:49] I now have the opportunity because usually you get the credits for one thing, right? People wouldn't know like, oh, Don is also directing his own video. He's also doing the styling for the video and he's also actually writing the press release, you know? But that's kind of what it was like. And now it's like, oh, you can actually put that into one bowl and, you know, it would be considered to be arts now. And that is the real revolution for me that took place next to all of the technical possibilities and opportunities that now the perception of what an artist can be has changed. And that's really where I was like, wow, I really worked for this moment most of my life. You know, I remember my ex-girlfriend, we were in the plane. I was in the plane. I was going to deliver my first piece that I sold to a collector in Dubai.

[12:42] And she rang me. She saw it on the news because it, you know, I think it broke the records, the sales record super at the time. And they were like, well, this is what you've been talking about. Like, you know, because we broke up. She's like, I'm just for all these years, I'm just looking at your back. You're just behind your computer, sitting there crafting away on something no one's going to want, no one's interested in. What are you doing? And, you know, we need to be out there. We need to go on a holiday. You need to be out there creating, you know, a social life. And she was very emotional. She was like, I can't believe all that stuff you talked about like 10 years ago is happening now. And you're ready for it. Let's dig into that. So when you were initially creating that first piece and releasing that first piece, I know how much work you put into your NFTs, to your work in general. Where did that process start for you? And maybe just for the

[13:31] folks listening who may not be aware, like you said, PR, video, everything, I've experienced the process firsthand. Walk us through how that first one perhaps happened if you're okay with that. Yeah, I think also, like for me, it was important that it wouldn't just be music. For me, music and sound is one part of what I do. So I really wanted to seize that opportunity of like creating the digital part as well as adding a physical part to it. Because I always loved creating physical things. I think also like it wasn't for me like, oh, I'm going to create NFTs. For me, it's more like, I can finally share and, you know, sell my art on the blockchain. And if you facilitate, you know, any type of medium that couldn't otherwise be sold, you can. That's exactly what it was. Like anyone's like, how are we able to create all these crazy, huge NFTs within like, such a short amount of time? I was like, I already

[14:23] created them. You know, it wasn't like I was, oh, snap, I need to now make an NFT. I mean, I think in 2017, I created a coin was doing all that, you know, but I was touring so much. For me, it felt too financial. They were all like, there was a shitload of people around me like, you're going to make millions, hundreds of millions. And it was a lot more, you know, finite. It was very DeFi. I think. Very DeFi. And to me, if there's ever a chance where I can do someone who believes in me, or, you know, someone who supports me or is a fan, I was like, okay, I'm going to back off from this. We had all the publications with all out there on the internet. But to me, when people are, when it becomes too money driven, and I can't control what would happen to someone that I care about, that's kind of when I backed out. I was like, okay, I'm going to wait this out for a couple of years until it's less money driven. And it's more creative. Obviously,

[15:16] people would say now like, hey, but you're selling seven figures pieces of art. So it is money driven. But that's, it's different because I mean, when it comes to something creative, sometimes even, you know, you, you've something you've worked for almost 20 years in the making, that has a value. And I think, you know, that it needs to be valued. And I think that's why I wanted to create something where my mom would be excited about NFTs. That was always my goal. Like, she's not on the blockchain, she doesn't understand, you know, what minting means, or, you know, any of the slang, but it would be like, hey, oh, you've built this cabinet, and it's on a digital cartridge, this digital artwork, and you put the cartridge in, and it pops up, and you can put it in your living room. Super cool. It has sound, it has visual, there's a story like this was created around a song that I worked on that I started when I was 19. And I, you know, I never released because it,

[16:12] it felt like I didn't have a place in the world, you know, like, and that to me was very symbolic, because that's kind of what I felt like most of my life, like I didn't have a place in this world, people would say like, oh, you've been successful. But there's a difference between being successful and being happy. Right. And also, what is success, you know, for me, the bar has always been crazy high. Like, I never, we never celebrate anything like, okay, what's next? What's next, right? And that was the bar for me as well here. Like, I really wanted to make my mark, I really wanted to make sort of carve out a unique space for me within the NFT world, within the digital art world, that would also have a physical component, have an audio component, as well as a digital component. And I think that's where I was able to, to create my unique, you know, trademark. And you've definitely pushed that as a medium. Look, one of the things

[17:00] I want to talk about generally in this positive, but also with you is, you know, the concept of world building. Because I think this is something that, you know, you do pretty much with all of your works, you know, you can call them what you will, but they're very multidisciplinary. That's actually funny that you mentioned that. Yeah, because I've already built like, my followers and fans and people that know me would know that I've created this world called Hexagonia. Fans are called Hexagonians. There's all of these symbols. There are all these characters. There's a comic book series. And this is something you've been developing for the extent of your career now. Yeah, exactly. People we've been talking about, like, let's go to Hexagonia. Like, we've been talking about like, for years, like people like, like hundreds and thousands of people have, you know, the logo tattooed somewhere on their body,

[17:44] some in their face or in the neck, and it's part of their life. It's part of the culture. It's, you know, you really have to understand what has been built. So the world has always existed inside of our minds, you know, this is why these things, you know, they tell a story, every song, every video, every piece of art has been part of the journey. The world has been created, but it hasn't been created. But yeah, for me, it was, it was, it started with the comic book series of what webtoon, you know, hundreds of thousand people started reading that the idea came from like, oh, let's actually build the world. But do we really like it also is an anti social aspect to it, right? But also to what you're talking about, you know, I think that we talk about this a lot, sometimes with fashion brands, or with, you know, like really, really large companies. Once you've kind of hit all of the different marks in terms of the physical world, you kind of like

[18:32] hit a limit, like you did the magazine, you did the music, he did the music videos, he did the TV, then one, right? So I think one of the really cool things, you know, as we're talking about world building for Hexagonia, or just in general, you know, the metaverse, that kind of removes some of the limits because, you know, you're exploring what else can I do, now that's kind of just opened up to what's possible. And now that can be pretty much anything. So I know that you've done so much. And you've, you've obviously explored the metaverse, you've a lot of your NFTs are multi dimensional. I built a metaverse about two years ago. A little early. Yeah, and build a metaverse, build a meta human, you know, really passionately, sort of like, working really sort of day and night on that. And then I was like, okay, I built it. But I like to take my time, you know, I don't want to rush things or like,

[19:17] you're my metaverse, do something with it. The same with some of the art that I was selling, and you know, was there for a couple of years, right? It needs some things need time, and you need to sometimes you even need to see how other people are, you know, how they trying to make the most out of it, to be very honest, because at the end of the day, what is a metaverse, right? You know, for me now, I like to combine the idea of like, a lot of my friends and a lot of people around me, they they're saying like, NFTs are antisocial, right? Metaverse is something antisocial. For me, it's probably one of the most social things that you can have, right? Yeah. Because it actually does connect people and people are afraid of it now. But I'm, you know, I see it as one of my goals to, to take away the fear, and to make people familiar and to make them feel, you know, like it's not scary to ask questions. I have many questions.

[20:16] We're all just finding this, you know, we're all figuring this whole thing out, right? But a lot of people are afraid, you know, a lot of people that I come across are like, whenever the word NFT is involved, they're like, Oh, shit. Now I hate it. Like, you don't hate it. It's just a way of sharing things with the world. How did you find that process with your audience? I'm curious, because I know that a lot of your, you know, like you said, you had a world that you built a lot of people right along there with for the journey. And a lot of them were very into, you know, technology, you know, techno music, whatever the case might be. How was that for them? How was that initial process? I think, I mean, I'm very lucky, because I have very smart fans, and I'm very, you know, they're very, very loyal as well. They're on the journey with me. I've always been, you know, my whole concept is built around the future, right? My music sounds futuristic, my clothing looks futuristic.

[21:07] And I've already worked with Star Wars, you know, I worked with, you know, with Google United Nations on all these futuristic projects. So it makes sense to them. Still, it fears them, because they read all of this stuff, they see PFP projects that don't really make sense to them. Like, they're like, why would I pay X for a picture of an animal? So they were like, that to them is like, it has nothing to do with art. So then I, you know, it's kind of sets me back. But they understand my journey. And to me, you know, it's, there have been people that are like, I think they were afraid I was going to abandon music, right? Like, oh, you're just now making art for rich people. You know, I've never made more music in my life. I've never been more dedicated to use whatever I'm getting now, to make everything else better, to create better music, to be happier, to make better videos, all of this kind of like, is like, music is free,

[22:10] like people, you know, you understand the idea. This is why the one of the things that I wanted to sell was a concert, Destination Hexagonia. The idea of everything being free on YouTube, on Spotify, like, I think we got like perverts that idea makes it seem like dirty or something, even though that's just you. The art part was actually the sale of the piece was the art part to me. It wasn't actually the actual piece almost. It was more like the idea of bringing back the concept of like, hey, what we're creating here has value. You know, it's not a given that you can listen to or watch everything for free. That's the world we live in now. But we have to find that, you know, that's not normal. When I grew up, that wasn't normal. You couldn't go watch a concert of your favorite artists or listen to music for free. I'd have to save up for it to buy a CD.

[23:03] It's also the scale of the work you're creating, I believe, you know, it also, again, going back historically, like if you look at any great artwork, you know, that wasn't something that, you know, was done for free. I mean, look at like the Sistine Chapel. It has to be commissioned by somebody and it's extremely expensive to do anything at that kind of scale. So I mean, maybe even just to bring it to a little bit of the present, you know, you've done a lot of installations, you've been in art galleries, you've been in museums, but now I even see you taking over like screens of entire buildings and, you know, taking these things to a whole new level. So, is that inherent to your practice or is it something that you've just been getting rid of? It kind of is. Sadly enough, I make it very hard on myself because I mean, I have thousands of video loops with audio attached to it that I could have sold on all of the, you know,

[23:46] all platforms, could have made a couple of million. But that didn't feel challenging to me. To me, it's like, I feel like what part can I play in pushing things forward and how can I, you know, what Avenger can I be in this adventure? What hasn't been done? You know, yeah, what is my superpower that people will write about in 20 years from now, right? So that's the immediate thing. Like everybody's like, okay, they're making videos, six, seven seconds loops, audio, okay, fuck it. I'm going to make a film of an hour. And I'm going to make it for one person, you know, and the thing, the idea is like, it can never, whatever you do, it can never be good enough. And people will be bored of it within 10 seconds. You know, people don't have that attention span to appreciate what really is going on sometimes. So to me, it was like, sometimes it's better to not show it and to kind of present people the idea of what it would be in their mind. Same with the metaverse,

[24:42] like now, yeah, I built two installations in China where you see glimpses, renders of the metaverse. I'm like, that makes you maybe appreciate at just a still a moment, right? Rather than we look at movies, it's like, it's like, it's two hours of just the craziest CGI. Sensory overload. Yeah, it's like, and then you look at an NFT, you're like, yeah, it's not, it's not Transformers, is it? It's not Star Wars, you know, and I think that sometimes, you know, we have to take a step back and just kind of like acknowledge like, hey, it is, you know, you have to look at it, or even the idea that you are not able to see it, that kind of sparks your interest. It makes it, it makes it more sexy, right? That's kind of where, yeah, where I'm at. And also the idea of like, making public art for other people that, I hate selling things, I hate selling concert tickets, I hate selling music, I like creating and I like, but I do want to reach people, you know,

[25:43] I do want to share it with the world and I want the best for my art on all levels. But I hate the idea of selling it, but for some reason, apparently, I've become pretty good at it. And not bad. And now notice like, hey, it's maybe that is part of my art, part of the art is being, you know, you've, again, if you look at it in a world, it's like, business is the finest form of art. Yeah, and it's also, is it about the art piece or is it about the artist? You know, do you want, you want something from someone who has a history, who has a vision, who thinks big, who thinks disruptive, who has different thoughts? For me, I don't just want to be a guy who's in there like, oh, here's a loop, check it out. Like, it looks dope. Here's some sound that I put it like, I know it's like, fuck, like, let's, let's take a huge risk. Let's, let's invest, you know, a shitload of time and resources into creating this thing

[26:34] that we have no idea if ever will, you know, if we will ever sell it on the blockchain. But that's, you know, to me, that was, it was about making a mark in the time where, you know, we were writing history. Totally. NFT Magazine, you know, as we're here right now, you know, we're really focused on the art, you know, NFTs are the tech that facilitates it, but we're personally really focused on crypto art and how it's all developing. And I think one thing that's really inherent to your practice and a lot of artists practice, but I think you wouldn't be you without it, is the storytelling. And yes, the world building, but really, you're creating a narrative and you're perpetuating that narrative throughout every aspect of the process. And I feel like that's what you really enjoy doing. From your perspective, you know, if we're thinking about what you're working on right now and what you've recently done, what's the biggest difference for you between creating

[27:16] that narrative for a single person versus showing something like what you're doing right now in China and doing something really public for a mass audience? A very good question, actually. I love creating something for one person. Sounds very weird because I've always had the pressure. Sometimes you're like, yeah, exactly. You're like, oh, you're single and you stream 50 million. Like that's, what are we going to do to make it better next time? Like 50 million is not bad. That's pretty good. Yeah, like my home has like over 600 million streams now. So that shouldn't be disregarded. Yeah. Do we really have to keep going? Yeah, there's always a bigger dog. It's like, but it isn't, you know, like, you know, Drake had so and so like, yeah, but I'm not Drake, am I? So then you strip it back and you're like, no, can I create something for one person that one person would appreciate? It felt really liberating because sometimes I would go,

[28:06] I would look at this giant stage is like, you know, 40, 50,000 people in front of me. I'm like, it's a little bit daunting, right? Sometimes I look at one person in the crowd, the whole show, I'm like, I'm looking at that one person, that person having a good time. And for me, that is what, you know, what this whole thing became. It's like, can I create something that one person would appreciate? And it was really liberating. I feel like if you're focusing on the one person not to interrupt you, but I feel like you're really focusing on yourself. Going back to what you said at the beginning, you know, that, that 13 year old you, you know, creating for yourself. Exactly. That is it. Because when I started like it was horrible what I did, you know, some of the things maybe other people might still find horrible, but definitely was horrible then. And I didn't know what I was doing. I was like 13 and I was, you know, I released my first record then.

[28:53] And looking back on it, like, there was no guidance that we had no idea. It was, you know, we were creating genres and music. I think for me, when music started popping off was when I let go of everything. It was when my dad passed away. We had this conversation. And after I started thinking about the concept of time, how precious time is, that is the most valuable thing. And I started to live in the future. It's like, what would music in the future sound like? So to create this my version of future house where this futuristic electronic music, you know, I was, I was thinking like, what would it sound like in 20 years from now? And rather than having a hit single, like, you know, it started a movement, you know, and from there on you had all the big pop stars kind of like, hey, from, you know, anyone from Rihanna to Coldplay to Bieber to like, say, hey, we want a remix of that sound.

[29:49] And that vehicle ended up bringing me to the masses. And I think I didn't know that that was going to happen. I wasn't seeking success. I was trying to create something new from that being that kid, that 13 year old kid that was like thinking like, what would the future look like? Can I be a part of it? And I think that really sparked the movement that kind of flowed into art and fashion and cinematography. And I'm lucky. I feel very blessed because I know a lot of guys out there, even in my shoes, they're like, who am I? What's my unique stamp in this world? What can I create? For me, it was like, I didn't name my fans. Hexagonians, they did that, you know, for me, the symbol stands for something and the way I write things, the way things look, they have my own mark.

[30:43] If you dive into the world, you see it, right? And I actually feel blessed about that now because I'm not aiming at having, you know, a hit single or, you know, creating X, Y, Z. It's liberating. It's liberating, but at the same time, in the world of art, I experienced something that I didn't experience in the world of music. I had the wind in my back because it was always an uphill battle for me for over 20 years, like no support on the radio. No promoter was booking me, you know, no colleague was playing my music, nothing. You had to push for it all yourself. I had to push so hard. I had no label. I had no management. Took me 20 years to get to a decent position where in all those years in between, people were like, see, the line between successful or even genius and madness is success because once you cross that line, it's like it goes from like, oh, I guess he isn't crazy after all.

[31:44] But to live in that and below that one line for so many years, you do actually go fucking crazy, right? And you have to be a little bit crazy, you know? And I think, you know, that to me is like, it felt so great because I felt like I was supported by the community, by the NFT community. And I felt like, you know, things went so bad. And now it's like, I'm in Venice at the Biennale or we're selling this crazy piece at Art Basel in Miami or I have these crazy public installations in the city center of China and Hong Kong. Or when they play you on a poster with like Andy Warhol in Basquiat. Yeah, exactly. And people are like, they're giving you that credits all of a sudden and they're giving you bets on the back and they're giving you opportunities that, you know, others would have, you know, be like, well, that will never happen to me.

[32:37] And I was like, wow, this is what it feels like to have the wind in your back. Thanks, guys. I feel blessed, like, oh, shit. The hard, still the hard part is to enjoy that. And I'm like, fuck you, Don. Allowing yourself to enjoy it. Yeah, fuck you, Don. Why don't you do that? Like, I'm already onto the next. I'm like, nah, this is probably a film where I'm like, you know, this is the Truman Show. They probably take it away from me. You wake up, you're 70. Yeah, you're nobody, you know, like you suck. But I feel like, to me, art and success, it doesn't come where you have to bleed. You know, sometimes people ask me like, how do you become successful or like, I don't know, do you have a private life? Yes. Okay, well, stop. Don't have a private life. Work 19 hours a day, sleep two, three hours and fucking believe in something relentlessly and work on that.

[33:26] Yeah, like, literally fucking, like, Don, like, I haven't been on a holiday for like, I'm over 10, 20 years, maybe, even. Like, I don't, it stresses me out because it means I lose a day where I can create and where I can be, you know, be the... You know, we're coming towards that, but I want to talk about that for a moment because I think the creative process is really important to a lot of people who are listening here. For you, you know, touring every day for so many years, year-round. You know, a lot of, that's something we talk a lot about with artists here is, you know, the necessity of, you know, novel time or like, novel idea time. Do you find that now, I guess, there's more space for you to do whatever you want? You have more time? Like, I don't know. Is it on a plane for you? Do you take time actually to sit and ideate? Like, when does that, you know, idea time come for you? You're right.

[34:11] I mean, for me now, there's less pressure. The things that I do now, also with the music, I do it, I do them because I, whatever relationship with the promoter, I know there's going to be a lot of fans there or... But there's no pressure anymore and I say no a lot. Funny thing is, if you're listening right now, when you start saying no, people start saying yes. It's like, it's like when you're not, when, you know, when you're not, when you're in a position that allows you to, you know, to have that freedom, a lot more is going to come to you. It's crazy. You know, like all of a sudden, all of these things started happening in music as well that it was never possible before that. But now it's like, okay, because you say no, like, why not? No, why no? People started upping, you know, all of the stakes.

[34:59] I was like, oh, this is great. They were all like, whoa, you're saying no to this. This is what you dreamed of your whole life. I'm like, it's not anymore now. I need time to think. I need time to create. We're at the dawn of something really revolutionary. So you are protecting some of your time to just work on, I guess. It's this fine line between work and play, I suppose. 100%. My idea now is like, hey, cool, I can fly, you know, to do one show in Brazil in the weekend, but because I love to see my fans and that's what I do for them. But at the same time, I could also be there thinking about this new concept or this new world that I'm building or, you know, my work at the moment is like exactly what I'm doing right now. I need, I want my work to be shown in museums and not just kind of just float by Fleety, you know, like for, you know, in front of people will be forgetting about it the next week.

[35:54] For me, that takes time. Yeah. And it takes brain capacity. Intention. Intention. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard. It's really hard. It's so hard to say no. And now all of a sudden, everything comes your way and it's like, can I have to say no to things now that I dreamed I dreamt of my whole life. In those kinds of moments, like, let's say this China example, do you start with that end goal in sight and reverse engineer it or do you start from a certain point and end up with that massive piece? Yeah, I know. Yeah, there's ideas that are alive in my head. But obviously, I need facilitators. In this case, Sotheby's, you know, they've been amazing. You know, for me, they really believed in me as a fine art artist. You know, they believed, they were like, hey, there hasn't been really in their eyes and we had this discussion in another podcast.

[36:43] We're like, you know, they were saying there hasn't been a musician that made a crossover that smoothly from music into fine art. Yeah. On that level, right? Going into museums and the biggest art fairs. I can't think of one, yeah. Yeah, so I was like, wow, that to me is maybe who I'm supposed to be. That is the opportunity that I'm given. So I need to be respectful of that and I need to work on that. And also, like, I take it one step at a time. People are like, what's your next thing? I think you're also a question. What's next? Yeah, I think there's the pressure of doing a lot, right? And I think a lot of people are like, oh, at the moment now, I do put it on yourself a little bit because you do a lot. I do a lot. But when it comes to my art and when it comes to my NFTs or whatever digital art or creative work in, you know, in the art world, I take it one step at a time.

[37:37] I'm not in a hurry. I'm going to do this till I die. You'd rather do it in two years and better than do it. Rather just create this thing that I, you know, like now in China, I have something that I'm really proud of, you know, and I really want the museum to be to know that I put my all into it from start to finish. And rather than like being like eight projects at the same time, I have a team who, you know, do all the work. I just say like, oh, my sounds great. It's it comes from me. That's that's what artistry is about. It has to come from you. And I think people know, you know, when the same goes from music, people know that I've created my own sound, you know, even if people will copy it or even yeah, even if I would work with other engineers, now would be like, it's his sound, right? And the same for me goes with the art that I do.

[38:24] You have to have your stamp. So it has to come from you. Of course, I could be in 25 different projects. But I've learned from that, like, hey, it's fine to do something really well. And then have a bit of space, move on to the next thing. If I do one or two big projects a year, like I did in China and Hong Kong now, it's great. But you can't do it all at the same time. Expect it to be at a certain level. Unless you have all the people do it for you the whole time. Yeah, you look at the people who are producing at that scale, they have teams of like 100 people, like making the things. Yeah, bear in mind, I want to get to that point. But I want to make like the same with music. Like before I was here, I made over, I made dozens of records that had my sound in it. So now I could, you know, anyone could be making it for me. But so you chose to be the yeah, exactly.

[39:11] So that is where I'm not. And now I need this needs to be. It needs to be clear who I am and not just like, oh, he's a musician. So you made, sometimes I'm standing here in a museum or, you know, at the next position and like, oh, so you made the audio? No, you know, I did everything. But I think the concept of a person creating, you know, a 360 piece of art and that's what I was talking about with Sotheby's as well. They were like, Don, you should actually implement your music even more because we have the opportunity to put music at a position where painting sculptures and all these other creative, you know, disciplines have been at for years. I felt like I've painted with sounds, you know, it's a collage of sound. I sit behind my computer and it's lines that turn into one piece that create a world that will.

[40:02] Even when I saw the collaboration with you and Studio Drift in the Biennale, last time we saw each other. I mean, like one of the times I went, I just closed my eyes and listened because it was so it is a world that you build when you do these, you know, multidisciplinary pieces. Yeah, I think exactly that is that is what I wear. I want sound and music and audio to go to why not have a museum one day where you're not looking at things. You're just listening, you know, just close your eyes because when I look at a painting, when I was young, I would go to the big museums and be like, OK, great. It's a it's a white canvas with a black spot in the middle. Who cares? You know, I didn't understand abstract or modern art. Now I'm like, OK, this is a story, the artist. This is the history of the piece. Now I'm like, OK, I understand. I understand our buddies take time, you know, and I think, you know,

[40:47] to me, that's that's a dream and I want to work on it. Could we create a museum one day where we're not looking at things while listening and and maybe it's completely in the dark. Maybe I'm giving away an idea. But to me, that's what it is. It's not about me taking it back. It's about there's always enough ideas. Like I've had people copy and steal ideas from me. Every day I wake up, there's a problem. Every day I wake up, there are people trying to trying to fuck shit up for me. That is part of who I am. That's what I think the biggest success I've ever had is I'm still here, I'm still alive and I'm still optimistic. I still believe in humanity despite me waking up and constantly being surrounded with people trying to fuck my shit up or trying to pull me down or trying to disregard or discredit.

[41:38] You know, it's the hardest part is an artist, especially now all of us here in this NFT space where like people want to disregard what we're doing here, right? They they're like, oh, it's not real. It's not real art. It's not real. It's it's it's monopoly money. It's monopoly arts. All the fun. Yeah, exactly. So it is real. We're just getting started. It is revolution and we just happened to call it NFT, but we could have given it any other name. Exactly. The name's not important. It's a vehicle and where it's a vehicle to transporters into a better future. I have one last question for you, Don. Kind of going back to, again, you know where you were and where you are now, you've always regarded and a global audience or you know, you've been working towards and have built a global audience. You know, in the NFT space, it's very decentralized and this is something inherent to the space and you already had a fan base

[42:27] that was, you know, quite decentralized all over the world. As you were saying, I'm curious for you as you as as we've talked about in this in this chat today, you know, China, Italy, you know, the states, all these different worlds, markets, mentalities, do you find that in the NFT space, there's this cohesivity of a shared idea or do you still find yourself in some way catering to different worlds, I suppose, in the goal of building your world? No, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. I think we're creating a world where we all have the same idea. We all have the same vision, which has been very hard because how can I create something that works for everyone, for all of these different cultures all around the world? It's because we're not dependent on geography, travel, or position in the world anymore.

[43:14] We're dependent on our mind state and we've now created a world, a place where we're all in the same mind state. To me, it's not about what you look like or what your sex is or how old you are. It's about your spirit animal. It's about your mind state. And to me, having that audience, it's beyond global, it's universal, right? Yeah, because the mind still acts as it. Yeah, that blows my mind and that gives me a humongous sense of responsibility. I don't want to take it lightly. I'm here for the long run. This is why I didn't launch my coin back then because again, we're building a community that goes way beyond anything financial, anything technical, or even anything creative.

[44:06] We're creating a new sort of way to connect humanity. And I think that's incredible. And I so hope that everyone that's not in this space actually sees that. And it's hard for us to translate that sometimes because people look at things super on the nose, right? But you have to zoom out. You have to have the helicopter view. And I feel like we're out here trying to make the world a better place. When I talk to Mike or like the people or any of like Mad Dog Jones or any of the other creatives FVCKRENDER, Victor Mosquera, all of these guys, all different disciplines.

[44:53] It feels like we're like Fibo, like we're Avengers. We all have our own superpower. We all come from completely different backgrounds, different ages, and everything about us is completely different. But we are in this together, trying to create something that wasn't there before and almost like, I feel like I'm part of this group where I'm inspired by people, which has been a long time because I wasn't even a music. Sometimes I'm like, people like to copy. It's not inspirational. And now I'm like, it's so great to see someone like people will be so successful. We maybe did something three or four years ago. If you zoom in on the 5000 every day, there's a picture of me in there.

[45:45] And I'm incredibly proud of that because it feels like I'm a part of history. And I feel like all those years ago, I was like, I already saw the potential and the talent that he had. And I'm so happy that millions of other people see it now. And he's validated in that way. And I think that is the real revolution. It's not about people. It's not about Don Diablo. It's not about all the big names. It's about all the smaller names that now have the opportunity to make a living with something that makes them happy. If you, you know, you can make a living with a few thousand dollars that can change your life. You don't have to answer to a boss anymore that makes you depressed. You don't have to work in developing countries. You sell on NFT or you're set for a lot, you know, for months at the time.

[46:31] Exactly. And I think, you know, that is and the same for me, like I like on some of the pieces we've created. You know, I'm working with this concept, this charity, global charity that we have. It's called Justdiggit. It's, you know, there's good that you can do with NFTs, you know, like we donated over a hundred thousand on one of my last pieces to Regreen, a big part of land in Africa. We'll have a drone video. It flies over. It will post it very soon. And it'd be like, hey, by selling this NFT, you know, all these farmers out there in Africa, now, you know, they had, we were changing their life and we're, you know, we're making the, we're actually making the world a better place. Look beyond, you know, mining. Or the sensationalism even.

[47:20] The sensationalism. Obviously, we always want to put things down, but we have to think bigger than that. You know, we have to show the world we can do great things even for the environment, shockingly enough. But also like for the creative world and for humanity, you know, for people who've been, you know, fucking depressed for so many years, unhappy. And all of a sudden, you know, they can sell something for $50. You know, from the bedroom. From the bedroom. And it can create happen. It gives them a connection to the world where they don't feel useless anymore, which brings me back to the very first video that I made for a track called useless. That track was called useless because I felt useless in this world. I was like, I have no use. Who the fuck am I? On this giant planet. And all of a sudden, millions of people have the opportunity to be heard, to be, you know, a part of society where they felt like

[48:13] left out for most of their lives. And that to me is the beauty of this whole thing. And I think, you know, I hope more people will join the revolution. Fabulous. That's a very full circle note to end on. I love it. Yes. It's too short, man. If we can talk for like three more hours. Obviously. No, I love it. Look, Don, I'm such a fan. I'm, you know, you're a friend. I so believe in what you're doing and I'm really excited to see it just continue to explode all over the world. Just for anybody who's listening, who may not be familiar, where can they go and check out your work right now? Go to, you can go to dondiablo.com/nft. Or think hexagon dash art dot com. Some of my work is there. Or if you like music, go to Spotify, go to YouTube, type it in. I'm there. Go to my Instagram. Some stuff is there.

[49:02] And yeah, or otherwise, try to find me on the street. Give me a hug. Let's do a little dance. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. It's such a pleasure. We hope to see you again. And as always, this is NFT Magazine, Crypto Art for Culture. So happy to have you all here. Appreciate you. We'll see you in the next episode.